Mums of sons. (Hard hat on for this)

[Daniagainagainagainagain]

Apologies for the grabby title. I've NC'd for this as I have a few running threads currently with very outing and personal details on.

Anyway back to the point.
I see SO many threads on here where the topic about the thread is about a guy. It's not even necessarily bad about the bloke in question, but so many many posters just seem to hate men. Not give them the benefit of the doubt. Tear them a new arsehole for merely posting on MN asking for advice. There was a thread recently about a woman seeing a really nice guy, a gentlemen as she described him where he had been separated for literally YEARS but wasn't divorced. Turns out there were cultural differences meaning divorce in that country is very rare. People kept saying 'throw him back in the sea' 'he's a liar' one poster called him a wanker.. there was no evidence that he was a wanker and the OP seemed happy with the guy. Just more people clutching for their moment to berate men. It's always the guys fault on here no matter what.

It's always the same posters more often than not berating men, shooting them down, and just hating them. I wonder, do these women posters have sons? If so, do you think your sons are exempt from such awful insults because 'my boy would never'? I can't imagine these posters talking about their sons like that. So do you pick and choose, is it one rule for your sons and one for all other men?

Before it labelled being 'cool' I have just got out of a 10 year abusive relationship where ex cheated multiple times to the point of police involvement. I am not naive to think some of these guys deserve what they get.

AIBU? To think there's huge double standards? To call strangers with no reason to, wankers, but to also think the son shines out of your son's arses?

I know I'll probably ruffle some feathers but I'd genuinely like to know. And yes I have DC.

I agree there is a a lot of sexism and double standards on here. But on the other hand, I am finding myself increasingly disliking the majority of men I meet as most of them have sexist and misogynistic views towards women. I think a lot of posters saying “ltb he’s a wanker” etc are just so sick of most men’s behaviour that they have started hating them all.

Yep. As evidenced by a recent thread in which the OP suggested a curfew one night per week for all men, so that women could walk the streets without having to plan to be safe. As if that suggestion wasn’t bad enough, some of the suggestions that came after were unbelievable - incarcerating all men between the ages of 16-25 until they had ‘earned’ a licence to go out - that licence being subject to ‘points’ and eventual revocation for ‘bad behaviour’. It was a real eye opener.

I certainly don’t hate all men but I am highly suspicious of most. Having worked in a male dominated industry I’ve seen first hand what a lot of people’s ’loving husbands’ are like. Cheating, affairs, their disdain for their wives, misogyny.

As an example of this I once worked with a male friend who I adored. He had twin babies and seemed a lovely dad. He was respectful to me and a good friend. I found out a few years later that the entire time he’d been fucking a colleague. And I realised then. It’s most men.

Plus the horrendous statistics around VAWG speak for themselves. Men are a danger to women a lot of the time. Statistically most women have experienced at least low level VAWG behaviours. And 1 in 5 men are perpetrators.

This has to change.

Having a son doesn’t change that and I can’t see how you perceive it would

Educating that son that women are not playthings/punchbags, inferior beings and that no means no every time would be a start to that change.

Pretty much the whole site during the 14 years I've been on it?

Spot on, OP. The venom with which some posters talk about men is vile. A man could save everyone from a burning orphanage yet there would still be posters on here who would find a way of maligning him. It's so tediously predictable.

Educating that son that women are not playthings/punchbags, inferior beings and that no means no every time would be a start to that change

@Rosscameasdoody of course. I mean having a son doesn’t change the statistics or the actions of a lot of men.

Oh the double standards on MN are ludicrous, actually the point of hilarity at times. It really blows my mind at times, some peole just can’t see it. My favourites are things like it being ok for a woman to cheat (just don’t tell him, it’s fine) or ok to snoop through a phone for no reason but the opposite being true and it’s LTB if a man even speaks to a woman by accident. Of course there are terrible men out there, but if an alien landed and read MN theyd assume all women are perfect and 99% of men are disgusting excuses for humans.

Completely agree with all of this. Plus almost every woman I know has been sexually assaulted at some point.

If the generalisation of large groups of humans didn't exist then the world would considerably be a much better place.

I think sometimes it's easy to generalize about Mumsnet, and think there's a hive mind when I'm fact the posters who have very negative opinions about men are different from the ones who have a different viewpoint.

Pretty much the whole site during the 14 years I've been on it?

No HQ clearly have an understanding of structural racism and emotional responses to it. They have been very careful and thoughtful about it in recent years. Not without limits, I'm sure, but they were open minded about critics race theory and so on.

They were very good on BLM, and endlessly patient with less important but still sensitive areas such as the Meghan Markle wars.

I remember reading a huge Site Stuff thread on which 3 or 4 main posters were duking it out on the issue of whether any royal person's behaviour was fair game for criticism, or whether any criticism of MM was automatically racist because any comments made about her un/intentionally invoked racist tropes about black women. It was hotly contested and went on and on, and HQ's handling of it was so careful and not at all trigger happy.

Ok, the double standards complaint just ain't true. It feels true because in reality this site is populated by women complaining about men's bad behaviour, and often men who come here to start threads are trying to make some sort of point.

There is a thread right now by a man describing abuse and everyone has told him to leave and he deserves better. The thread about a curfew was met with most people saying it was a terrible and immoral idea.

This is a site mainly populated by women, and in particular mothers. Mothers of young children are in one of them most vulnerable periods of their lives for abuse by partners. Furthermore, MN has a reputation for helping with abuse and so a lot of women post about their abuse. Of course the perspective is female centered and of could we err on the side of protecting the woman who is posting. We know that the stakes are high, and we've seen a lot of the shit described before.

Isn't the whole huff around 'critical race thoery' a whole cultural war-type panic started by that political activist Christopher Rufo though?

Just Google 'Christopher Rufo critical race theory'

Not for me. I find generalising about men very useful for keeping myself safe. One of my rules for example is to never get drunk in the company of men who don't love me. I've learned that lesson the hard way. I'm happy that I've learned to generalise that women who don't love me most likely won't spike my drink and rape me. If I didn't Generalise in this way, I'd never be able to go out and drink with friends.

And all men benefit from the shitty behavior of a few of them, because:

1. They look really good by comparison, even if their own behavior is just what everyone's ought to be to the bare minimum standard of decency
2. It makes all women at least slightly afraid of men, because we have seen what they can do to us and we also know that there are not necessarily warning signs before it happens.
3. Victims of long term abuse automatically walk on eggshells around men and try to appease them to avoid potential future abuse

In short, men can throw their weight about and not even realize they are doing it, because most women will have been conditioned to a certain degree of obeisance towards men from the day we were born.

*Here's a new perspective. Men (boys) are primarily raised by? Their mothers.

We are, largely speaking, a product of our enviroment.

So when anyone points the finger at men, they are also pointing the finger at the person who reared them most.*

Too bloody right. Everyone knows that when men do something wrong it's always women's fault. Or maybe if their fathers put as much effort into raising them as their mothers they'd turn out well balanced. They grow up thinking women are beneath them because that's what their deadbeat dads teach them.

I disagree that it’s a huge amount of posters that simply hate men. I would also say that many of the men posting here, in my opinion, are posting in bad faith and often bread crumbing very poor and abusive behaviour throughout their posts.

But I do agree there can be a double standard. But this is a space frequented by mainly women. So it’s always going to lean that way. Go to any forum that is predominantly used by one group and there always will be more sympathy for people of that group.

I have no idea if these posters you talk about have sons or how they view their sons. so can’t comment. I have several great men in my life, I don’t hate all men. I am wary of any man I don’t know though.

But yes if someone hates all men and believes all men can not be good people, I don’t know how they reconcile that with having a son. Only they can answer.

I have also been in abusive relationship, have many friends who have been and one friend was murdered by her husband, while their baby slept, carried out of the house and dumped in the woods like a piece of trash. He went home and told people she had bad post natal depression and got up and left in the night.

I have a son. I have brought him up to see women as equals in all ways. Not an extension of him, not there to provide services to him, not for him to posses and control. I doubt he will become an abuser. But I don’t know. I hope he grows up like my Dad. But who knows. The same goes for my daughter. I have brought her up with values that I think are important. But she is an adult now, she will choose her path.

I don’t agree, though, there’s many posters on men who hate all men. Some may jump to ltb quite quickly, but rarely when there’s no clear issue. Usually there is quite a big issue. And where people do say ‘ltb’ over very minor issues, other posters usually comment say it’s ridiculous.

I completely agree with you. I think the 'boys will be boys' narrative is incredibly harmful.

I also wonder if a lot of the posters that berate men, who have sons, use the 'boys will be boys' rhetoric on them though.

Just to be clear this isn't aimed at any mothers with sons, of course not. But a lot of those posters who are the purpose of this thread will have sons.

My ex MIL was an example of this. She was a 'feminist', but when finding out her lovely son cheated on me, abused me to the point of police involvement etc, she said 'what did you expect with being with such a good looking guy' and also, that 'boys will be boys.'

Isn't the whole huff around 'critical race thoery' a whole cultural war-type panic started by that political activist Christopher Rufo though?

Just Google 'Christopher Rufo critical race theory'

I'm talking about how HQ handle the sensitivities of traumatised groups.

I know CRT is controversial. That's why HQ's handling of it was so impressive.

I think it would be helpful to remember that many women are also traumatised by their experiences of men.

Another example of double standards”

woman: Just found out my friend’s husband is having an affair. DoI tell her?

MN - yes she deserves to know

woman: just found out my friend is cheating on her husband. Should I tell him?

MN- no stay out of it’s none of your business.

That's not double standards, that's doing the right thing by your friend in both examples.

Just what I was thinkin😂

This isn't a double standard. If she's your friend of course you tell her. Presumably you love her, or at least like her enough to be friends. If your friend is having an affair then loyalty to the friend - or at least whatever remaining like for her you had - would in most cases stop you from going to the husband,.unless you're also friends with him. I imagine you would council her to tell him and then step back from the friendship.

It's not a double standard, though.

What if I the second example the husband is also your friend?