Has the left now met the right, shaken hands with it then stuck 2 fingers up at the general population?

[Soloadventurer]

Womens rights are an area the globe seems to struggle with. Afghanistan has decided women must be covered head to toe, including hands, in thick black fabric and cannot be allowed near men. Australia has decided men must be allowed in women's spaces or face being taken to court for large sums of money, making it all but illegal now to have women only spaces there. Why does the world hate women so much?

So my (and a vast majority of men) supporting what you say about trans not entering female only places is somehow wrong?

Questioning the motives behind men wanting to become women or vice versa is not in any way unreasonable. To shut down any discussion does nobody any favours.

@endofthelinefinally Intersex is very much a condition. It is when a child is born with a mixture of male/female sex organs or mixed up chromosomes.

What would you have us do then?

Stop laying the blame for male people accessing female spaces in anyway on the women who fought to achieve equity of opportunity where female people have been negatively discriminated against for millennia based on our sex category. That would be a start.

Where? Can you do it when you come back?

I don't blame it on the reasonable fair minded women that did just as you say. I do believe those that then started demanding access to reasonable male only places, did open the door to spurious claims of equality for all including trans.

@ATenShun sweetie, you need to read up on ‘Intersex’. The women here know vastly more about it than you- forced learning sadly.

Intersex is a disputed term mainly replaced by DSD or VSD which as a PP has said is always associated with one sex or the other.

I know a man with a DSD, and arguably some would say one of my DS’s has a DSD.

Neither were intersex.

Well which is it?
Sex or gender. We obviously cannot have both.

I want single sex spaces, the ones we had until recently.
You can't time the spaces I require to be single sex.

I never want single gender spaces, aside from the cost of 859 (and increasing) seperate spaces and where to put these spaces, gender is in someone's head, unqualified, indefinable.

I am also perfectly fine with men having the same single sex spaces I have.
So for every men only golf club, there should be a woman only golf club. Etc

Such as private men’s clubs and golf clubs?

The right and left do not meet in the middle. Their interests remain diametrically opposed.

The right have historically disadvantaged certain groups economically - women, non white - denying the vote, underpaying etc They have seeded sexism and racism to supposedly explain low wages and unemployment of white men whilst making profit.

The left has historically fought white male underpayment and unemployment whilst fighting to increase the rights of women and non whites to equal rights.

But now by smoke and mirrors the economic is irrelevant and it's all about the social - like they're not linked. It's all about masculinity and femininity. If you don't like biological men in women's spaces you are right wing. I don't like biological men in women's spaces but I am left wing. I don't believe that the drive to push women back comes from the left. I think they are being too nice and don't see the misogyny that drives this. Sometimes wanting to see the good in people means you are played by the self serving. Because they play by different rules - mainly the profit motive - and are unmoved by the social disorder they foster to meet their own need.

I'll go with the NHS definition of it for now thank sweetie.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/

@Bodeganights Firstly there was never anything stopping someone from creating a women only golf course. The reality will be it was never financially viable, due to lack of customers.

''I am also perfectly fine with men having the same single sex spaces I have.
So for every men only golf club, there should be a woman only golf club. Etc''
If you wanted to look at it from a numbers point of view. You eg have 100 men wanting to join a golf club compared to 10 women. So for every 10 courses you build, you would need 1 womens course. As these clubs are private enterprises, the onus on creating them lies with those that will use them. How many women stood up and said lets create a golf course?

What about those of us smack bang in the middle on the trans debate. Where we say there needs to be a third way, perhaps another changing room for those identifying as trans?

"Intersex is very much a condition. It is when a child is born with a mixture of male/female sex organs or mixed up chromosomes".

It really isn't. There are some good explanations written by biologists/geneticists over on FWR that are worth reading. In the wake of the Olympics boxing situation there has been a lot of discussion about DSDs along with some helpful myth busting.

You join the rest of us who have been suggesting it for years and being rejected and abused for the suggestion. But we persist.

I'd say that's the way to go - doesn't impinge on women's rights whilst recognising trans rights. After all why should the rights be opposed? I don't want transmen and trans women to feel uncomfortable or at threat but I don't think this is on women who have fought hard for safe spaces. But this is only something that can come from the left. The right want trans not to exist not provide a separate safe space.

Intersex is very much a condition. It is when a child is born with a mixture of male/female sex organs or mixed up chromosomes

This is not true. All DSDs are one sex or the other. It is not accurate to talk about a 'mixture' of sex organs.

That's the GC position. Has been for years.

Even people with differences of sex development can reliably to categorised, using modern technology, into male and female. That is based on whether the body is formed around the production of large gametes or small, and it doesn’t matter whether that body produces those gametes or not. The only body parts that matter for this are ovaries or testes, whether fully formed or not.

That's fine. Women would have single sex spaces in this situation.

Your argument is very muddled but where do you mean re reasonable male only places?

Have a guess what happened when they opened up a non binary competition?

So the NHS are saying it all wrong? Would it not be fair to say that if you are eg born with a womb and internal testes, you have both male and female sex organs?

That is exactly the scenario the female to male trans person I knew of had. The decision was made by her parents and dr's to bring christen and bring her up female. And like I said in that post, I can understand her now him feeling in the wrong body.

@EasternStandard I mean it isn't unreasonable to have male only sports clubs. Male only gentlemens clubs. Male only support groups. In the same way that female only versions of anything like this would be entirely reasonable.

@AlisonDonut

I'm confident I have spoken out against this more than once previously in this thread. I disagree entirely with a man calling himself female and entering sports as female. This is something the majority of men and women feel.

This is basically an edge case of an edge case. Ridiculously rare. But still clear that even here, the body is only set up to make one kind of gamete.

So the NHS are saying it all wrong? Would it not be fair to say that if you are eg born with a womb and internal testes, you have both male and female sex organs

Which DSD is that?