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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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8
SensibleSigma · 23/08/2024 17:10

Bromptotoo · 23/08/2024 16:47

Not my eyes; those of the Judge.

What? What the fuck are you on about? Hinting at dark things is only making me impatient, and not lessening my opinion of Sal Grover at all. Spell out the issue your are so concerned about instead of leaving us to guess.

Then we can hand you your arse accurately rather than based on guesswork.

SensibleSigma · 23/08/2024 17:11

They’ve managed to cobble together 48 TRAs to vote now.

Helleofabore · 23/08/2024 17:14

lifeturnsonadime · 23/08/2024 17:07

I think Bromptotoo is scolding Sal for not being respectful enough of Tickle’s pronouns.

it’s unbecoming of women to tell the truth don’t ya know!

That maybe lifeturns.

If that poster cannot articulate what they are referring to directly, one might wonder why that is?

legalalien · 23/08/2024 17:15

A key input into the bit of the judge's decision that people are calling out, was that some of the changes effected by the amendment to the Sex Discrimination Act in 2013 that added in gender identity as a proscribed ground of discrimination deliberately muddied the meaning of "sex" at law:

ParlInfo - Sex Discrimination Amendment (Sexual Orientation, Gender Identity and Intersex Status) Bill 2013 (aph.gov.au)

The definitions of man= male and woman=female were taken out deliberately:

Per the EM "These items will repeal the definitions of ‘man’ and ‘woman’ from subsection 4(1). To the extent these terms appear in the Act, they will take their ordinary meaning. These definitions are repealed in order to ensure that ‘man’ and ‘woman’ are not interpreted so narrowly as to exclude, for example, a transgender woman from accessing protections from discrimination on the basis of other attributes contained in the SDA."

Ironically the next paragraph refers to males and females: "It is not intended that by repealing these definitions the SDA would be limited in its application to only adult persons, but that ‘man/men’ and ‘woman/women’ continue to refer to all males and females respectively." (presumably what they meant to say was that it was intended to continue to refer to men and women of all ages?

It also says "The definition recognises that being intersex is a biological condition, not a gender identity. It does not require a person who is intersex to identify as either male or female in order to access protections under the SDA. The definition is not intended to create a third sex in any sense. It does, however, recognise that sex is not a binary concept and that an intersex person may have the biological attributes of both sexes, or lack some of the biological attributes considered necessary to be defined as one or other sex."

The key problem for Giggle is that they were seeking to defend a case of "sex" discrimination on the basis that Tickle was a man (and then they could rely on a provision permitting sex discrimination for good purposes); legally he was a woman and he wasn't alleging sex discrimination, he was alleging gender identity discrimination.

It seems to me that the judge may not have been personally invested in the outcome that legal logic led him to. He makes it clear at the start that while the Giggle side are challenging both the validity and legitimacy of self-ID and its consequences, he only has the ability to rule on validity issues. As he quite rightly says, "Any debate around the concept of woman, of womanhood, or gender more broadly as a natural, biological, or social construct falls well outside what I must, legally, determine in this case."

He's bound with an interpretation of the legislation that is consistent with its purposes and with relevant case law.

Maybe an appeal to address the incredible breadth of the external affairs power in the constitution - I'm told it all went wrong with the Tasmanian Dam case back in the day.

BunfightBetty · 23/08/2024 17:16

qwertyasdfgzxcv · 23/08/2024 15:48

Th judge made a mistake.

I'm shocked that people are allowed to change their birth certificate. There is no objective truth anymore.

Absolutely. When were we consulted on this? Or, indeed, any of it?

Meadowwild · 23/08/2024 17:19

Does anyone know what his name was before he became Roxy Tickle? I mean, it's possible that Tickle is his actual surname but Roxy Tickle is such a cos play name.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 23/08/2024 17:20

discocherry · 23/08/2024 14:14

I very much feel like the majority of trans women are just wanting to live their lives in peace and should be able to do this. I don’t care what people wear or how they present themselves.

My issues with this are:
a) Why would you even want to join a space for women that is clearly specifically for discussion of issues that solely impact biological women? I would not dream of trying to enter a space made for trans women because I don’t have the same experience and problems.
b) Wearing “female clothes” and “growing your hair” doesn’t make someone a woman.

Honestly I don’t like at all how divided and hostile this issue is but I just feel like no one has ever given a satisfactory reason why we should accept that someone wanting to wear “female clothes” etc makes them a woman - how is “I want to wear makeup” not a totally sexist and reductive view of womanhood?

Nail on head. What on earth does it mean to 'live as a woman' or 'identify as a woman'?

Hypothetical case. Mike is 40, white, heterosexual father of three, in reasonably good health, former professional rugby player,

If Mike tried to get people to accept any of the following* people would be concerned and outraged.

I identify as a 3-year-old not yet out of nappies
I identify as a wheelchair user and I expect to get assistance on public transport
I identify as Black British and I will stand for election in my union for a place reserved for BAME members

And yet if Mike says:
I identify as a woman, so I am now my children's mother. Because I am sexually attracted to women, that makes me a lesbian, and it's transexclusionary for lesbians to exclude me from their dating pool. Now I am a woman I can stand for election as a women's representative in my party. I am going to join the local women's rugby team (average age of players: 17) and if I am picked for the A team I will play this dangerous contact sport with the other women and I will share their changing rooms and showers. If I go through airport security I will expect to be patted down by a female member of staff. I want the NHS to change my medical records to show F instead of M and if I need in-patient treatment I expect to be on a female ward. If I retrain as a healthcare practitioner and a patient asks for a woman to carry out her treatment she'll get me. Etc etc.

That's all fine, apparently. It has no more basis in material reality than the other claims, but who cares, it's only women and girls at risk.

*There are real life examples of people claiming all these things and some people accepting, justifying and even celebrating it, but I'm reasonably confident most people wouldn't do any of those things.

Bromptotoo · 23/08/2024 17:21

SensibleSigma · 23/08/2024 17:10

What? What the fuck are you on about? Hinting at dark things is only making me impatient, and not lessening my opinion of Sal Grover at all. Spell out the issue your are so concerned about instead of leaving us to guess.

Then we can hand you your arse accurately rather than based on guesswork.

As I've said before I've got my own position in the Trans debate and I'm not wasting time arguing the toss as neither side will convince the other.

ADaisyADay · 23/08/2024 17:22

bringbacktheladiesloos · 23/08/2024 14:29

So glad I don't live in Australia

Alas, that doesn't matter because this idiotic judge and his wicked ruling will set a precedent around the world.

Bromptotoo · 23/08/2024 17:23

@legalalien seems to hit the nail in terms of what the Judge was required to decide.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 23/08/2024 17:23

Bromptotoo · 23/08/2024 17:21

As I've said before I've got my own position in the Trans debate and I'm not wasting time arguing the toss as neither side will convince the other.

So why are you posting?

BunfightBetty · 23/08/2024 17:24

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 23/08/2024 17:20

Nail on head. What on earth does it mean to 'live as a woman' or 'identify as a woman'?

Hypothetical case. Mike is 40, white, heterosexual father of three, in reasonably good health, former professional rugby player,

If Mike tried to get people to accept any of the following* people would be concerned and outraged.

I identify as a 3-year-old not yet out of nappies
I identify as a wheelchair user and I expect to get assistance on public transport
I identify as Black British and I will stand for election in my union for a place reserved for BAME members

And yet if Mike says:
I identify as a woman, so I am now my children's mother. Because I am sexually attracted to women, that makes me a lesbian, and it's transexclusionary for lesbians to exclude me from their dating pool. Now I am a woman I can stand for election as a women's representative in my party. I am going to join the local women's rugby team (average age of players: 17) and if I am picked for the A team I will play this dangerous contact sport with the other women and I will share their changing rooms and showers. If I go through airport security I will expect to be patted down by a female member of staff. I want the NHS to change my medical records to show F instead of M and if I need in-patient treatment I expect to be on a female ward. If I retrain as a healthcare practitioner and a patient asks for a woman to carry out her treatment she'll get me. Etc etc.

That's all fine, apparently. It has no more basis in material reality than the other claims, but who cares, it's only women and girls at risk.

*There are real life examples of people claiming all these things and some people accepting, justifying and even celebrating it, but I'm reasonably confident most people wouldn't do any of those things.

All of this.

Bromptotoo · 23/08/2024 17:24

MrsOvertonsWindow · 23/08/2024 17:23

So why are you posting?

Public legal education.

Lovelyview · 23/08/2024 17:24

If any GC mumsnetters support Amnesty International you may want to rethink. They've posted a tweet celebrating the result. Strangely they have omitted a picture of the gentleman in question instead showing a generic picture of an actual woman. They are currently getting ratioed to hell.
x.com/amnesty/status/1826982698226737303

Meadowwild · 23/08/2024 17:25

soupycustard · 23/08/2024 15:41

Yanbu.
If biological males can be termed 'women', then sex-based rights are completely meaningless. The interlink between TRAs and incels is becoming clearer by the day
It's clever really. A patriarchal world finds itself having to give those damn wimmin 'rights'. It goes further and further, until males find another way to impose their wants and desires. And this time, instead of being termed sexist, they're celebrated and nurtured as the most vulnerable and victimised of any group.
All credit to the patriarchy. They're playing a blinder.

That's pretty much what I am seeing from the TRAs. Classic 1960s and 1970s misogynistic sexism. Ladeeze stfu. Do as you are told, accommodate and prioritise my wishes.And open your legs on my command lesbians. When I was young, women who wouldn't sleep with men they didn't find attractive once the pill was available were harassed and called frigid. Now they are called transphobic. But it all boils down to Do As You Are Told By Men.

I am old enough to have seen it all before. Every last pathetic, self-serving, conniving, outraged, self-pitying, misogynistic strategy.

FOJN · 23/08/2024 17:25

Thisisallabitshit · 23/08/2024 14:52

I’m really confused now. If Giggle is for women only then what is this thread all about? Did she do an about-face at some point?
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3982978-Giggle-app-for-girls-only

Edited

Yes it happened to lots of us. We were of the be kind persuasion because we were ignorant of the changes the TRA's were campaigning for. I thought Germaine Greer was behaving like a reactionary has been until I saw masked men (men who said they were women) blocking the entrance to a meeting room where women were gathering to discuss the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act and setting off smoke bombs.

The Guardian gave space to one of the violent men to write an apology, none of the women he intimidated were given a column. Notice how in the first paragraph he laments the state of his hair rather than his violently intimidating behaviour.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/26/trans-rights-protest-gender-critical

Mudflaps · 23/08/2024 17:26

I'm in a fb women only group that go camping/hiking/swimming and it's been absolutely brilliant for my mental health but the admins are constantly afraid that similar will happen and some man will insist on joining or will manage to join the group and then turn up for a camping trip. If this happens we have agreed that we will pack up our gear and go home but we shouldn't have to even think about it, sitting around a campfire chatting about everything and anything with other women of various ages had been wonderful, having it disturbed by a man insisting he has the right to join us would end it.

CoatRack · 23/08/2024 17:26

SilenceInside · 23/08/2024 14:13

Only an entitled male would take an organisation for women-only to court to force them to accept his membership.

The confused state of the law in Australia is shocking, as is the fact that a judge could sit there and actually say that sex is changeable and not necessarily binary! No mammal on the planet has or ever will change sex, and of course sex is binary - what are the other sex(es) and what is their role in mammalian (and therefore human) reproduction?

Only an entitled male would take an organisation for women-only to court to force them to accept his membership.

Laughs in Boy Scout...

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/08/2024 17:27

Public legal education.

Your first post was a snide dig at Sal Grover. How is that "public legal education" exactly?

Helleofabore · 23/08/2024 17:29

No male can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.

Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is. How can it be?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome.

Which is that they will always be just a male who believes they are something they are objectively not.

How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 23/08/2024 17:29

Bromptotoo · 23/08/2024 17:24

Public legal education.

Except you haven't educated anyone. Posting curt sentences clarifies nothing. It does make you look as if you have no rationale or arguments for all this but that's your call I suppose.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/08/2024 17:30

It does make you look as if you have no rationale or arguments for all this but that's your call I suppose.

Goes with the territory I guess @MrsOvertonsWindow

Helleofabore · 23/08/2024 17:31

Bromptotoo · 23/08/2024 17:24

Public legal education.

Then I guess that you have failed at that on this thread today.

StarDolphins · 23/08/2024 17:32

This is disgusting, absolutely bonkers.