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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Aibu to not understand why France is considered more upmarket than Spain or Portugal?

179 replies

Janesygal · 22/08/2024 13:27

Just that.. It's right across the channel, our nearest neighbours so why is it considered more upmarket than Spain, the Spanish islands or Portugal?

OP posts:
onlyconnect · 22/08/2024 15:31

I think holidaying in France was considered more upmarket because it didn't have the package holidays and big resorts that Spain and Portugal have. That idea is a bit dated now though as so many people book their own accommodation and flights wherever they're going. I think also there was a type of middle class family who loaded up the car and drove to France at a time when most people didn't go abroad ( or went in a package holiday to Spain). But again, although that still exists there are so many options now and so many people go abroad that upmarket connotation is dated.

LlynTegid · 22/08/2024 15:35

onlyconnect · 22/08/2024 15:31

I think holidaying in France was considered more upmarket because it didn't have the package holidays and big resorts that Spain and Portugal have. That idea is a bit dated now though as so many people book their own accommodation and flights wherever they're going. I think also there was a type of middle class family who loaded up the car and drove to France at a time when most people didn't go abroad ( or went in a package holiday to Spain). But again, although that still exists there are so many options now and so many people go abroad that upmarket connotation is dated.

I think that is the main contributor. Though I think the image of the Cote d"Azur and things such as the book 'a year in Provence' also play a part.

MereDintofPandiculation · 22/08/2024 15:39

In all my years of going, I've never seen pissed up Brits, stag night and all inclusives so I think in general it does seem a bit more upmarket. Never seen that in all my years of visiting Portugal either.

Everyoneesleistheproblem · 22/08/2024 15:39

Thepeopleversuswork · 22/08/2024 14:31

I don’t think France is automatically considered to be more “upmarket”.

There is quite a specific thing with Spain and Portugal that they were the targets for a lot of budget holidays targeted at Brits for many years, hence the creation of cheap hotspots around the Costa Blanca/Costa Del Sol (and more recently Barcelona) etc. Ditto the Algarve. But that applies to particular regions rather than a whole country. There are plenty of very upmarket places in Spain and cheap ones in France.

It’s a bit like saying “Scotland is more upmarket than England” if you’re comparing a bijoux castle in the Cairngorms with a trailer in Skegness (sorry Skeggy). Ignoring the fact that England has four bedroom luxury lodges in Norfolk and Scotland has grim estates.

You have to compare like for like for this to be meaningful.

Yet those are the prevailing impressions.

France and Italy immediately convey culture and sophistication ( art, music, food) . Spain and Portugal (despite being huge colonial superpowers) don't to the same extent.

FunnysInLaJardin · 22/08/2024 15:45

Nadeed · 22/08/2024 14:20

Because the poor people are less likely to holiday there. No other reason.

Exactly! Quite a lot of assumptions about class on this thread.

The reason w/c folk go to an all inclusive in Spain isn't because they are uncultured, its because it is a cheaper holiday all told

CasperGutman · 22/08/2024 15:46

It's historic. Holidaying in the south of France predates air travel. It was the preserve of (relatively) wealthy Brits who would take a boat across the channel then travel, perhaps by train, down to the Riviera. If they could afford it they'd take Le Train Bleu. As paid holidays and private cars became more of a thing for the middle classes from the mid twentieth century onwards, they also sought better weather, gastronomy, history and culture by taking holidays by car in France.

Relatively few travellers would venture over the Pyrenees and explore Spain and Portugal, which were rather poor and underdeveloped well into the second half of the twentieth century. Although the country has a rich history, it was less appealing to British travellers than Italy, where the legacy of Ancient Rome and classical civilization was a powerful draw.

Remember that Spain was controlled by the Francoist fascist regime until 1975, well within recent memory for my parents' generation and almost into my lifetime. This contributed to the lack of development and would hardly have made it a popular destination for the chattering middle classes. Influential media types and general leftie types certainly wouldn't want to chat about a trip there at dinner parties, and people from all sections of society who'd fought against fascism in the Second World War were probably not too keen either for some reason.

The tourist industry in Spain took off in the 1960s and 1970s. The country initially sold itself as an inexpensive destination for northern Europeans looking for warmer weather, a sun lounger by a pool, and inexpensive drinks. This was entirely understandable given the relatively low wages and low cost of living in the country, which was markedly less developed than other parts of Western Europe, but it is an inherently less upmarket offering.

Holidays in France are still more likely to involve driving France therefore lends itself to trips where you get off the beaten track and explore villages with little restaurants and old churches, go hiking or cycling. These are all more typically middle class/upmarket pursuits. Holidays in traditional resort areas of Spain very likely involve flying, and the place is much more geared up for providing the classic package holiday model: a coach transfer to a hotel with a pool, after which you're more likely to stay in the vicinity and enjoy a holiday that's centred around the sunshine, the beach and the pool. There's nothing wrong with any of that, but for whatever reason it's seen as more downmarket.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Train_Bleu

Janesygal · 22/08/2024 16:17

MereDintofPandiculation · 22/08/2024 15:39

In all my years of going, I've never seen pissed up Brits, stag night and all inclusives so I think in general it does seem a bit more upmarket. Never seen that in all my years of visiting Portugal either.

I have in Albuferia & Praia de Rocha, lots of English & Irish bars too offering the "full Irish or English" breakfast

OP posts:
Cameme · 22/08/2024 16:22

My PiL live for much of the year in the South of France, half an hour inland from St Tropez, so we spend a lot of time there, but probably an equal amount of time in Spain and Portugal.

We're always self catering, avoid tourist spots and prefer very quiet locations: both Spain and Portugal have plenty of them. The food and wine in Portugal is especially wonderful, and the supermarkets and fresh food markets we visit are on a par with those in France. The fresh fish on the Atliantic coast is the best in the world imo (the comment about Portugal 'stinking of sardines' is rather reductive).

The South of France has always attracted artists, the rich doing the Grand European Tours in years gone by, and it's where my (very wealthy) PiL and their friends choose to buy their second homes. I find the coast a bit flashy, but still with some charm, and of course Nice and Marseille are beautiful/awful depending on where you go, like any city. There's a history of refinment, culture and exclusivity that prevails today, and along with the intolerance for package-style holidays, I suppose that give France it's reputation for being 'upmarket.'

I find that the South of France is very different to the rest of France anyway!

FuckThePoPo · 22/08/2024 16:24

People are such snobs 🤣

LindorDoubleChoc · 22/08/2024 16:26

Interesting question. I was not aware that people consider France more upmarket. What sort of people, OP?

BitOutOfPractice · 22/08/2024 16:28

I think it’s because the French have PRed themselves very well for centuries - they claim to have the best wine, food, culture, language, fashion etc. And the British feel like oafs in comparison. Of course nothing could be further from the truth but still the myth persists.

Jordanstits · 22/08/2024 16:30

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

GoFigure235 · 22/08/2024 16:38

I know French food is meant to be great but in all honesty I'd take some yummy Spanish tapas over a chunk of suspicious meat slathered in an unidentifiable sauce, with a side of the obligatory pommes frites, any day.

Maybe we just haven't eaten in the right places the last couple of times we've been to France (or maybe my GCSE French isn't up to the task), but regardless of what we ask for, this seems invariably to be what is slapped down in front of us whenever we cross La Manche.

SonicTheHodgeheg · 22/08/2024 16:42

GoFigure235 · 22/08/2024 16:38

I know French food is meant to be great but in all honesty I'd take some yummy Spanish tapas over a chunk of suspicious meat slathered in an unidentifiable sauce, with a side of the obligatory pommes frites, any day.

Maybe we just haven't eaten in the right places the last couple of times we've been to France (or maybe my GCSE French isn't up to the task), but regardless of what we ask for, this seems invariably to be what is slapped down in front of us whenever we cross La Manche.

Tapas is very child friendly and it was a godsend in those days when I had small kids with fluctuating and fussy appetites who could just eat the bread in an emergency.

halava · 22/08/2024 16:44

W0tnow · 22/08/2024 14:51

….hmm, kinda! It’s sort of like ‘ber-de-ho’, but a soft ‘b’. Like halfway between a ‘b’ and a ‘v’.

But pay me no mind, I live there and butcher the language on a daily basis!

I know.... at least he tried, and his pronunciation was better than calling it Verd "edge" O 😉

Simonjt · 22/08/2024 16:47

Well I’m yet to see anyone squat and take a shit on a busy street in either Portugal or Spain.

Simonjt · 22/08/2024 16:49

PetrichorSoul · 22/08/2024 14:01

Came on to say exactly this.

France and Italy don't have package holidays where you can pay a deposit and pay off the balance throughout the year.

It changes the type of holidaymaker.

We are doing exactly that for a holiday to Italy.

Clearinguptheclutter · 22/08/2024 16:51

FunnysInLaJardin · 22/08/2024 13:42

I was thinking about this before we went to France in the summer.

We had to buy a new car for the trip as our old one gave up the ghost.

My conclusion was that France is considered more MC as you have to have the funds to buy and insure a decent car as most people drive down due to the lack of package type holidays

We live up north and almost everyone we know who goes to France flies.
there may be no package holidays as such but plenty of flights!

Clearinguptheclutter · 22/08/2024 16:54

It may be because no real “British” resorts have emerged in France, us Francophiles spread ourselves out a bit. And consequently people who don’t speak any French are put off going? Unfortunately being able to speak a bit of French is quite a MC thing. You don’t need to speak a word of Spanish ir Portuguese to have good holidays in those places

Clearinguptheclutter · 22/08/2024 16:57

Oh and while there are def very upmarket places to go in France our recent camping near lake Annecy followed by villages natures near Paris were anything but upmarket

olivehater · 22/08/2024 17:17

Comedy cook

In my eye self catering is more upmarket because you tend to go out to dinner.

You find a nice restaurant, take your time, look at the menu, speak to the waiter, make and evening of it. Try a different restaurant every night.

Full board you queue up at a buffet and you’re done in half an hour.

PoliteOtter · 22/08/2024 17:19

LlynTegid · 22/08/2024 15:35

I think that is the main contributor. Though I think the image of the Cote d"Azur and things such as the book 'a year in Provence' also play a part.

I was going to say these things. France did have a middle class appeal back in the 80s over Spanish resorts (and it does have good campsites). Especially the South of France (where celebs also went, like in that 80s pop song). France was also associated with culture because a) it has lots and b) people often studied French (or German) at school, languages were more valued than now so more popular degrees among MC people; now Spanish is more popular but fewer people study languages (and therefore their culture) generally. Spain was a communist country until the mid-70s, whereas France was cool among 60s boomer students because it influenced 60s pop culture.

This is my general unqualified impression, I am not saying I don’t love Spain or Portugal, I do.

Cameme · 22/08/2024 17:21

I find that lots of people we know drive down to France. They usually go for longer periods of time than the standard fortnight, and that makes the drive more reasonable.

We always drive - I like seeing more of France than just the South, we can visit friends on the way and I bloody hate flying with a passion!

5foot5 · 22/08/2024 17:22

Janesygal · 22/08/2024 13:30

Dh thinks it's because it's not known for it's all inclusives or package deals.. But most of the British who go camp so who knows!

Most camp!? Where did you get that idea from? Been going to France for more than 30 years, combination of hotels and gites. Never ever camped.

We know friends and family and colleagues who go and I can only think of one who "camped" and that was because they went in their own camper van.

Cameme · 22/08/2024 17:27

Yes to a pp, my PiL said that a Year in Provence caused a big influx of people buying up properties.

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