Holiday with another family and behaviour of their ASD child

[upoutandin87]

Currently on holiday with my family and another family (old friends) they have 2 older children same age as my kids and they also now have a 6 yr old. We have holidayed with them before but not since the youngest was born. Youngest is ND (autism and suspected ADHD). My son is 15 and autistic so I know about ASD but there DD seems out of control and we can't cope with it. She swears spits hits and throws furniture if she doesn't get her own way - there is no routine and she basically gets what she wants - she slapped my DD earlier today and called her a f b because she didn't want to go in the pool with her - my friends answer to this was you cannot say no to her - if you don't do what she wants she kicks off so we have to let her do what she wants. My friends DH and 2 older kids can't cope with her so they go to the beach and take my 15 yr old with them - I prefer being by the pool so I stay with them and my DD 17. We honestly don't know what to do as our holiday is being ruined by a 7 yr old. She threw my bag in the pool yesterday and I was fuming. We are trying to do stuff without them but they seem to be constantly appearing - they never raise their voice at their DD or tell her to stop as negative language makes her worse. Last night their 15 yr old told my son that she has been permanently excluded from her primary school and she currently has no school place from September - I was aware she has had several exclusions for violence but only short term exclusions but her parents have not mentioned to us about the exclusion. My DH wants us to cut all ties with them until they start parenting their child properly. We are only 3 days in to a 10 day holiday and are tempted to fly home to get away from them. I feel so bad as I am an SEN parent myself but they won't take any advice from us about maybe having a routine and setting boundaries. I so feel for them as they are completely broken by her behaviour but I don't actually know what I can do to help.

This sounds much more lack of parental boundaries than it does ASD issues

It’s textbook ASC with demand avoidant profile, to those of us who actually live with it daily.

Totally agree with your first comment as that is my experience. Have to work FT too, no generous benefits and being a SAHP like people think. Doesn't help that to access any benefits at the correct rate, or to get an EHCP/special school place you nearly always need to go to tribunal. To access any form of healthcare you have to alway send 'evidence'. You Don't get time off work as a carer for planned appointments and there is no holiday clubs for children with complex needs too, so you use all your leave covering holidays and appointments when you could really do with having a week off when they are at school. Some parents don't even get the benefit of having a school place either. It's shit. I wish people with NT children would join us in campaigning as we are a minority and just get left to rot.

When people suggest accessing 'respite' I laugh.

It's a shame the holiday hasn't worked out, but try to think of the parents dealing with this all of the time. If I planned to go away with anyone I would forewarn people though. I'd probably avoid as I would stress about ruining someone's holiday. If they still came insisting we were being dramatic then that is their fault.

No it's "textbook" oppositional defiance and aggression towards any form of authority or control.

Yeah cos we're all textbook cases of something. 😂

I think ODD is that sort of behaviour in the absence of any other condition surely? I'm not sure how you could call it ODD when you haven't even seen it for yourself. Do you earn much as an armchair paediatrician?

I don’t agree @Nowordsformethanks - we already know the DC is autistic, so PDA - which unlike ODD does not involve choosing to disobey - is far more likely, as it often accompanies an ASC diagnosis.

I appreciate it can be hard to see PDA as a disability, and not chosen behaviour, if you’re not familiar with it.

But thats what happens ,what else do you expect parents to do ,most of us just have to get on with it as there is no other option, and I know you're trying to Be kind but you have no idea how you would cope with a child with complex needs ,most of us can't afford to breakdown, what would happen to our children If we did?

I’d lay good money that the parent who has washed their hands of the child was the parent who applied significant pressure for the trip to go ahead. I’d bet the one left dealing with the child has been worrying for months about it and didn’t think it was a good idea

Yes, I think this is a very astute observation.

@x2boys well said. (I actually have a mini break down several times a week, but once I’ve finished I just have to dust myself down and look after DS, because no other bugger will!)

Away with a friend and her 10yr old at the moment who isn't ND. He has moaned and disagreed with anything that any adult has asked him to do about 80% of the time. He also employs a very grating toddler like tone when whinging away. None of my kids have behaved in this way.

I've told him off a few times as has my DH. My kids are finding him very wearing. He doesn't seem able to stop.

When my friend brought his behaviour up I didn't want to say, well yes he's a whinging spoiled brat and you're doing him no favours by indulging it.

We've just spent some time away from them. To try to have a break from him. I will always be friends with my friend. Might not holiday with them again though!

I can imagine the extreme nature of what you're having to deal with OP. I'd try to find alternative accommodation in your case I think. It's not fair on you. This is your holiday. ND or not.

How can you possibly be sure of that on the information given @Nowordsformethanks?

There is a significant overlap between the conditions.
From Tony Atwood and colleagues -
Certain behaviours, such as temper tantrums, irritability, defiance and aggression, are present in both PDA and ODD, complicating the diagnostic process.

Oh, I know. Great kudos to those who are handling it.

The main reason I didn't have children is because I knew I would be useless in a complex needs situation; I have low energy and little patience. Best wishes to those of you facing these challenges.

It really doesn't if you have a level of knowledge about neurodiverse children. This sort of parent blaming really makes life for families of disabled children pretty awful you know. It makes families stigmatised and undermines parents mental health. Perhaps reflect on the impact...?

Autism stigma also extends to informal caregivers in the form of ‘courtesy stigma’, that is, the stigma experienced by individuals who are closely associated with the individuals with a stigmatic mark. This type of stigma includes the blaming of caregivers for the onset of autism and deterioration of their child’s development, an expectation that they should be ashamed, that they lack competence in their caregiving role, and that it is best if they are avoided and/or pitied (Milacic-Vildojevic et al. 2012). Holding such views can lead to caregivers being socially rejected (Gray 1993; Corrigan et al. 2006).

From: Papadopoulos C, Lodder A, Constantinou G, Randhawa G. Systematic Review of the Relationship Between Autism Stigma and Informal Caregiver Mental Health. J Autism Dev Disord. 2019 Apr;49(4):1665-1685. doi: 10.1007/s10803-018-3835-z. PMID: 30569408; PMCID: PMC6450836.

@InterIgnis you're absolutely right, OP doesn't owe anyone anything in this situation; she should seek to meet the needs of her own family on their holiday, this is obvious. I've not taken issue with that at all.
I'm also feeling sorry for the woman who never gets a holiday from what is a really rough deal, but gets to have her parenting critiqued on a parenting site. It's possible to feel bad for two people involved at opposite ends of the same challenging circumstance simultaneously.

@Violay I did say 'better regulated', not 'well regulated'. I did acknowledge that the OP's friend's other children found their sibling's behaviour challenging. It's a really tough situation for all members of a family such as OP's friend's, and now also, by extention, the OP and her family.

My friend and I have known each other over 20 years and we are really close - we speak often over text or facetime but never once has she said about how bad DD's behaviour is. I only know stuff from what her older child has told my child. I think she honestly thought that her DD would play happily in the pool whilst her older kids and my kids did their own thing and the four of us could sit and chat happily- obviously it didn't quite work out like that. We haven't seen them all day as they have been out at the beach - but a few people complained about her behaviour yesterday so I think they are keeping a low profile. They are going to stay off the complex during the day for the rest of the holiday.

I so want to be a supportive friend and feel so guilty that it has come to this - I feel a bit like I have abandoned them but all the teens have met up tonight and my friend her DH and DD have stayed in their room. I have suggested that tomorrow night me and her go out for a drink child free to a little bar down the road but she said that DD will not let leave her so she is going to bring her with her but maybe away from the complex she will be ok.

I don't want to fall out with them as they are really good friends so if we both do our own things with our own families and the teens can still meet up we can make it work for the remainder of the holiday.

When you say other people do you mean other people in the hotel complex? At least they’ve done it for you then and she seems to have realised.
That’s a shame she won’t come out with you and leave the child with her father. Could she wait til she’s asleep?

Just wanted to say thank you for your comment.

As a parent of a ND child, I find some of these comments about ‘setting boundaries’ and ‘living in the real world’ tone deaf and they clearly come from people who have NO experience of ND children.

For parents of NT children - try to be kinder, try to understand or if you can’t muster that, perhaps just keep your unkind thoughts and opinions in your head. I feel sorry for the mum the OP is referring to, I hope she can find her people and gain some better friendships.

@upoutandin87 sounds like you’re being kind and diplomatic to me. From what you’ve said your friend is having exactly the kind of dark time on this holiday that many of us with children like hers have been guessing at. If you’re able to have a good time with your own family and offer her a bit of moral support and reassurance you’d be doing her a great service. You might find it improves the whole situation if she’s not worrying about how much you all hate her for doing this. If she doesn’t feel able to leave her daughter maybe ask her where you could go that would allow her to sit and talk for a bit. You might have to have your drink and chat sat on the hotel room bed whilst daughter watches telly rather than at a bar. If you’re with the child you want her somewhere safe and contained and away from judgemental eyes so her mum can relax.

She knows they’ve fucked up, but I’d guess she was trying for a bit of normal for them all. The fact that they’ve pulled away suggests that they’re trying not to make it awful for you too.

I really hope you can salvage some fun from this situation.

Just push back and reinforce the boundary. It's your holiday too and she has absolutely duped you by not being upfront. She's pushing your boundary again by saying yes- if DD comes. Not simply sorry, she can't make that work due to DDs needs (which would be fair enough) or she will speak to DH and try and make it work; no, her assumption is that you should just go along with her stance. No self awareness and it's not helpful to anyone.

"That's OK, but I don't think a bar is the best place for kids and I really just want to catch up 1 to 1. Ill be ready for 9pm so message me if DD settles woth your husband, otherwise hopefully we will see you around at breakfast tomorrow."

We used to go away with friends who's children had challenging behaviour, one with Asd. We did it for many years. The parents never said no to their children either.
We tried to go on day trips without them but they got upset by that. It was very frustrating that we had to put their children's needs before our own children all the time. All the fun ended with their children having melt downs, swearing, spitting, fighting, trashing rooms.
We tried our best as we did enjoy their company. We still see them but only for short periods.
I think we would of had a huge fall out if we continued to have holidayed with them!

have suggested that tomorrow night me and her go out for a drink child free to a little bar down the road but she said that DD will not let leave her so she is going to bring her with her

Ooft.

Why would her child behave any better in a bar? I would just decline and say maybe it's too much. I don't know why you are intent on being around them. If anyone slaps my child then I would cut them out immediately but somehow that's ok with you.

To those now bitching about the mum being unable to leave her DD - intense separation anxiety is really common with ASD children. Especially with the mum, who is almost always the "safe" person for the child.

If the mum is already scared of further pissing people off who have already complained about her daughter, she is probably too worried to leave her at the complex knowing full well that it will result in a very intense meltdown until she returns.

And yes she probably needs to find a way to manage the separation anxiety for both her and her daughters sake, but it is a hard process and a holiday in a strange environment with tension already at its peak is NOT the time to push this.

Nobody has bitched.

To those now bitching about the mum being unable to leave her DD - intense separation anxiety is really common with ASD children. Especially with the mum, who is almost always the "safe" person for the child

I completely understand why she cant leave her. But do you really think taking her out to a bar is a good idea? Thats pretty boring at the best of times for most kids, let alone a child with high needs

This thread has been heartwarming if a bit painful to read because so many on here do get it. Is there somewhere where you all gather on MN? Is there a pda thread on here?

OP’s meeting in the bar could be maybe avoided by her friend being reassured that OP doesn’t hate her and by being reassured that OP is both able to take care of her own holiday experience and hold on to the friendship.

OP may not realise the physical need for friends child to be near her mum as a safe person to allow the child to be calm, or that kids with autism and ADHD are often very poor sleepers so the other mum may have a very complicated evening routine. OP might not realise or think it’s odd that the friend can’t ever have a babysitter in for her kid. OP’s friend is probably bloody knackered by 7pm and ready for bed. A lot of us have been there. The friend offering to meet is probably doing so out of a want to hold on to the friendship only. Perhaps OP could take some of the pressure off that.