Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be so fucking angry. How many more women and children must die?

778 replies

Kianai · 21/08/2024 15:40

I'd almost become numb to it, with all the news so far this year.

Murder after murder of women and their children. Noone ever seeming to link the common denominator. NAMALT.

This latest one today, I feel like something is beginning to snap inside me. Three babies and a young woman dead, because of a fucking man. Again. And again.

news.sky.com/story/police-launch-murder-investigation-after-woman-and-three-children-die-in-house-fire-in-bradford-13200678

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
XChrome · 22/08/2024 01:43

Veebee89 · 21/08/2024 21:37

I haven’t seen a single post on here demonising ALL men. Yet you feel the need to defend men instead of condemning the men who are killing women. No one has said your husband or son are violent.

Male violence against women is NOT caused by more women working, fewer police officers or a cost of living crisis. Those things don’t make people murder.

It’s caused by misogyny, a culture which objectifies and dehumanises women, everyday sexism which normalises and reinforces the idea that women are lesser, which blames women for men’s actions and the male belief that women only have value in their relationship to men - which is seen on a spectrum from men who feel entitled to murder women once the relationship ends to the men who only care about violence against women when they think it might affect their wife, daughter or sister.

Show quote history

Spot on.

XChrome · 22/08/2024 01:50

WotsYourExcuse · 21/08/2024 23:38

One thing seems apparent. That a lot of people form opinions without really looking at the data.

One thing is apparent. You have a tendency to cherry pick and thereby misuse data to suit a personal agenda. I've called you out on it before and I'm doing it again. I've posted a link to a review which shows the context about male vs female domestic assaults that you have avoided acknowledging in a past conversation where you were pushing this same propaganda. This is your cue to run away from discussing it here as well.
Or you could surprise everyone by acknowledging you left out important context.

mathanxiety · 22/08/2024 02:39

Pepinoo · 21/08/2024 22:22

I haven’t made an enormous mistake. I’m totally onboard with tough, zero tolerance sentences, anything that acts as a deterrent.

However, as people have pointed out a lot of this goes on behind closed doors so I think it is up to society as a whole, men and women, not only to promote tougher sentences but also to go for the joined up approach I mentioned. Better education, male allies, good male role models for boys. It isn’t putting the onus on women, it’s on women and male allies, thus the whole of society. I think you need to get away from the us and them mentality.

It is in fact putting the onus on women.

We have to find the male allies.

We have to fight for justice, to open the eyes of the justice system to reality, to make men own up to their part in our oppression and see something for them in stopping it.

The whole problem here is that there are many smart, educated men out there and yet this massive problem that causes so much trauma in families and goes on to cause so much destructive and self-destructive behaviour across generations has completely escaped their notice.

We need to ask - why the blind spot, why the failure to see what is under their noses, why not take violence in the home seriously, why women feel trapped, and we need to ask why we are kidding ourselves that male allies exist.

offyoujollywelltrot · 22/08/2024 04:10

SweetcornFritter · 21/08/2024 22:24

What?? The majority of men are violent?? Rubbish.

Show quote history

Yes they are.

SeaStory · 22/08/2024 07:06

I do think the factors mentioned probably are triggers for some men, who are like that anyway. However I think the best way to tackle it is a joined up effort involving women and male allies, but for that to happen you need to trust that not all men are like that and get the decent ones onboard. People might call me old fashioned but I think it’s so important for boys to have decent male role models.

Where are the role models though? The so-called good men are most often found joining in with banter, defending their mates, putting on a good front to the women in their lives (any woman who has worked in a male-heavy environment can attest to that), but feeling good about themselves because they’re not a rapist.

Many men who position themselves as male allies turn out to have positioned themselves to have access to vulnerable women, this happens time and time again.

The answer is for men to crack down on male behaviour. At the moment it seems like the more women get angry the more men turn to the likes of Andrew Tate because they feel like they are oppressed (what’s that quote about men feeling they are oppressed when women ask them to take their boots off our necks?).

The answer is to deal with every incident of poor male behaviour in a consistent way from a young age. No more relying on little girls in primary school to control unruly boys. No more allowing bad behaviour to be written off as boys will be boys. No more ignoring porny behaviour at all. No more accepting rape and pedo jokes. Limit porn access, let’s make violent sex actions seedy and unacceptable again.

Boys who are reminded again and again that they hold the power grow up to be shit husbands and shit fathers, but because this is the norm most women don’t realise, and are unable to see it, until (if they’re lucky) the drip feed over the years opens their eyes, by which point we are too old to be taken seriously.

Men are the problem. Until men decide things need to change nothing will.
Meanwhile here we are trying to cling onto the rights we have whilst all over the world women face atrocities every day, and no one cares.

noworklifebalance · 22/08/2024 07:19

Whippetlovely · 21/08/2024 23:15

Most murders are partners /husbands ex partners and an escalation of stalking / DV. Police need to take any reports of DV much more seriously. In general though I don’t have any fear of men, I’ve never felt threatened by a man and I also have a son and I think the chances of being harmed by a man is slim unless you are in a DV situation. Do any of you have sons? I don’t like this talk that all men are potential murderers it’s crazy. I actually worry more for my son than my daughter. He is more likely to get stabbed and killed on a night out.

But who is your son most likely to be stabbed by? Another man

BiscuityBoyle · 22/08/2024 07:24

offyoujollywelltrot · 22/08/2024 04:10

Yes they are.

Show quote history

I don’t agree. Thinking of all the men I know, family, friends and work colleagues I didn’t know a single one who is violent. Not a one. Perhaps I’m lucky. Perhaps I don’t come from a family with that kind of background, perhaps I pick my friends well, perhaps it’s that my workplace is the kind that attracts a certain kind of man.

So based on the men I know violent ones are the outliers. I’m not saying that a lot of men are violent but in my experience it’s not the majority.

offyoujollywelltrot · 22/08/2024 07:27

BiscuityBoyle · 22/08/2024 07:24

I don’t agree. Thinking of all the men I know, family, friends and work colleagues I didn’t know a single one who is violent. Not a one. Perhaps I’m lucky. Perhaps I don’t come from a family with that kind of background, perhaps I pick my friends well, perhaps it’s that my workplace is the kind that attracts a certain kind of man.

So based on the men I know violent ones are the outliers. I’m not saying that a lot of men are violent but in my experience it’s not the majority.

Show quote history

Good for you.

noworklifebalance · 22/08/2024 07:28

BiscuityBoyle · 22/08/2024 07:24

I don’t agree. Thinking of all the men I know, family, friends and work colleagues I didn’t know a single one who is violent. Not a one. Perhaps I’m lucky. Perhaps I don’t come from a family with that kind of background, perhaps I pick my friends well, perhaps it’s that my workplace is the kind that attracts a certain kind of man.

So based on the men I know violent ones are the outliers. I’m not saying that a lot of men are violent but in my experience it’s not the majority.

Show quote history

I feel the same way about the men I know but how can anyone know what goes on behind closed doors? Your statement is very naive at best.

”They seemed like such a lovely family”
”I always thought he was such a devoted father and husband”
etc etc
We hear statements like this time and again.

CharlotteRumpling · 22/08/2024 07:30

BiscuityBoyle · 22/08/2024 07:24

I don’t agree. Thinking of all the men I know, family, friends and work colleagues I didn’t know a single one who is violent. Not a one. Perhaps I’m lucky. Perhaps I don’t come from a family with that kind of background, perhaps I pick my friends well, perhaps it’s that my workplace is the kind that attracts a certain kind of man.

So based on the men I know violent ones are the outliers. I’m not saying that a lot of men are violent but in my experience it’s not the majority.

Show quote history

How on earth do you know that the lovely men in your workplace or your friends are not violent? One of my friends suffered in a DV violence situation for years. None of us knew. Her husband was from that kind of background, charming, well educated, absolutely perfect in person. I knew him well for over 20 years.The last person I would have said was violent.

The case of the Epsom college principal should tell us that violent men are not always whom we think.

noworklifebalance · 22/08/2024 07:32

Perhaps I don’t come from a family with that kind of background, perhaps I pick my friends well, perhaps it’s that my workplace is the kind that attracts a certain kind of man.

What a self congratulatory and ignorant statement! I am actually embarrassed for you

CharlotteRumpling · 22/08/2024 07:37

Yes, some posters seem to think that violent men are drunk, dishevelled football thugs with a large sign saying " I am violent" round their necks so they can be avoided. They are doctors, lawyers, bankers, politicians...
"That kind of background" indeed!

ArabellaScott · 22/08/2024 07:39

BiscuityBoyle · 22/08/2024 07:24

I don’t agree. Thinking of all the men I know, family, friends and work colleagues I didn’t know a single one who is violent. Not a one. Perhaps I’m lucky. Perhaps I don’t come from a family with that kind of background, perhaps I pick my friends well, perhaps it’s that my workplace is the kind that attracts a certain kind of man.

So based on the men I know violent ones are the outliers. I’m not saying that a lot of men are violent but in my experience it’s not the majority.

Show quote history

I'm genuinely glad you have been this lucky. May you always remain so.

Abusive and violent men come from all classes and backgrounds. They are manipulators who are often charming, intelligent, upstanding members of the community.

Most of them don't advertise the fact they are violent. Most abuse happens behind closed doors.

Veebee89 · 22/08/2024 07:39

WotsYourExcuse · 21/08/2024 23:15

Yet all the evidence shows that men who kill their partners and families don’t just “snap”. It’s a long, pre-meditated process that culminates in them killing their partner after a history of abuse.

The most common pattern is actually bidirectional violence.

I said above that it doesn't happen out the blue. It can be a big long culmination of mutual hostility and violence before the man snaps. Obviously not all murders are like that. Some are indeed preceded by one way abuse even if the majority is bidirectional.

Edited

No it isn’t. Two way abuse is incredibly rare and counter claims of abuse is actually a tactic used by abusive men. Spouting nonsense as though it’s fact when it has no basis in evidence and being an apologist for men who kill women is only telling us who you are.

Whatafustercluck · 22/08/2024 07:48

Singleaftermarriage · 21/08/2024 16:06

I was speaking to my friends about this and saying how the "protests" (riots) should have been every woman and girl in this country demanding that they can be safe from male violence. It should have been women on the streets forcing people to listen. As a newly ish single woman with 3 daughters I worry that all it takes is a break up for your life to be in danger. It makes me so angry

When women protest they get silenced by big burley [male] police officers. That photo of the woman at the Sarah Everard vigil is etched in my memory. I had never felt so appalled and angry as when I saw that photo.

Op, yanbu, obviously.

SparklyJadeFawn · 22/08/2024 07:52

SeaStory · 22/08/2024 07:06

I do think the factors mentioned probably are triggers for some men, who are like that anyway. However I think the best way to tackle it is a joined up effort involving women and male allies, but for that to happen you need to trust that not all men are like that and get the decent ones onboard. People might call me old fashioned but I think it’s so important for boys to have decent male role models.

Where are the role models though? The so-called good men are most often found joining in with banter, defending their mates, putting on a good front to the women in their lives (any woman who has worked in a male-heavy environment can attest to that), but feeling good about themselves because they’re not a rapist.

Many men who position themselves as male allies turn out to have positioned themselves to have access to vulnerable women, this happens time and time again.

The answer is for men to crack down on male behaviour. At the moment it seems like the more women get angry the more men turn to the likes of Andrew Tate because they feel like they are oppressed (what’s that quote about men feeling they are oppressed when women ask them to take their boots off our necks?).

The answer is to deal with every incident of poor male behaviour in a consistent way from a young age. No more relying on little girls in primary school to control unruly boys. No more allowing bad behaviour to be written off as boys will be boys. No more ignoring porny behaviour at all. No more accepting rape and pedo jokes. Limit porn access, let’s make violent sex actions seedy and unacceptable again.

Boys who are reminded again and again that they hold the power grow up to be shit husbands and shit fathers, but because this is the norm most women don’t realise, and are unable to see it, until (if they’re lucky) the drip feed over the years opens their eyes, by which point we are too old to be taken seriously.

Men are the problem. Until men decide things need to change nothing will.
Meanwhile here we are trying to cling onto the rights we have whilst all over the world women face atrocities every day, and no one cares.

"Until men decide things need to change, nothing will".

I disagree. Why would men change? What do they have to gain by changing?

They have the power now and it suits them.

It's only when women unite, stand up , join forces and protest, will things change

ErrolTheDragon · 22/08/2024 07:52

Like @BiscuityBoyle , I don't know a single man who is violent.

Or rather, I don't know any who I know to be violent. I don't know what might go on behind closed doors in other peoples lives, and I've no idea if any apparently mild mannered friends, colleagues or acquaintances may have a capacity for violence which hasn't yet exhibited itself.

I've honestly no idea whether it's a small minority of men who could be violent, or the majority. All I know for sure is that the majority of violence, and by far the most serious violence, is committed by men.

SparklyJadeFawn · 22/08/2024 07:53

As my male acquaintance once said to me"

"Would you give up power if you had it? Not at all"

Veebee89 · 22/08/2024 08:06

BiscuityBoyle · 22/08/2024 07:24

I don’t agree. Thinking of all the men I know, family, friends and work colleagues I didn’t know a single one who is violent. Not a one. Perhaps I’m lucky. Perhaps I don’t come from a family with that kind of background, perhaps I pick my friends well, perhaps it’s that my workplace is the kind that attracts a certain kind of man.

So based on the men I know violent ones are the outliers. I’m not saying that a lot of men are violent but in my experience it’s not the majority.

Show quote history

I can’t believe you actually wrote this. If only those silly dead women would pick their friends better and choose a workplace that attracts the right kind of man!

You have no idea if the men you know are abusing their partner, just like the people in these men’s lives had no idea:
Emma Pattison (murdered by accountant husband)
Angela Crompton (murdered by artist and sculptor husband)
Joanna Simpson (murdered by pilot husband) June Jumaily (murdered by GP husband)
Alison Lumsden (murdered by lawyer husband) Victoria Cilliers (attempted murder by army sergeant husband)
Hilary Brown (murderered by surgeon husband)

There is no “kind of family background” abusers come from or kind of workplace they’re attracted to. Please educate yourself. Your ignorance is astounding.

SeaStory · 22/08/2024 08:08

SparklyJadeFawn · 21/08/2024 22:57

There is a lot of it to do with physical strength.

A man once said to me "if we were going to bully and abuse anyone who would we abuse, we are going to abuse the people that are weaker than us obviously, women".

Its an animal world.

If there were a load of people around that were a head shorter than women, presumably we would be pushing and showing them round too. And bullying them.

How to evolve is the question

Children are much smaller. Women are over represented in caring for them yet manage not to kill them at the rate that men kill men or women.

Men are the problem.

SparklyJadeFawn · 22/08/2024 08:09

Veebee89 · 22/08/2024 08:06

I can’t believe you actually wrote this. If only those silly dead women would pick their friends better and choose a workplace that attracts the right kind of man!

You have no idea if the men you know are abusing their partner, just like the people in these men’s lives had no idea:
Emma Pattison (murdered by accountant husband)
Angela Crompton (murdered by artist and sculptor husband)
Joanna Simpson (murdered by pilot husband) June Jumaily (murdered by GP husband)
Alison Lumsden (murdered by lawyer husband) Victoria Cilliers (attempted murder by army sergeant husband)
Hilary Brown (murderered by surgeon husband)

There is no “kind of family background” abusers come from or kind of workplace they’re attracted to. Please educate yourself. Your ignorance is astounding.

Edited
Show quote history

I agree with that poster.

Most of the men I know are not violent.

It's a bit silly to get whipped into a frenzy by the news of a murder, and say "most men are like that".

There are plenty of normal men around.

When lucy letby killed lots of children, did we say, 'look at what all women are like"?

Maybe men said that about us.

SparklyJadeFawn · 22/08/2024 08:11

SeaStory · 22/08/2024 08:08

Children are much smaller. Women are over represented in caring for them yet manage not to kill them at the rate that men kill men or women.

Men are the problem.

Show quote history

Women abuse a lot of children

And a lot of women HAVE killed children .

Lucy letby - serial killer of children
The woman who killed baby Star.
Thw woman who killed Arthur Labinjo.

There are loads of cases

cupcaske123 · 22/08/2024 08:12

WotsYourExcuse · 21/08/2024 23:37

Read the link I posted. Study after study confirms the bidirectional bit. And homicidal men don't take years of abuse. They become homicidal. Obv this isn't always the case and some men are just arseholes, but many murders are preceded by years of toxicity.

Edited
Show quote history

Your stats aren't worth much. If women were just as violent, 85% indictable crime, 88% of crimes against a person, 90% of murders and 98% of sexual offences, wouldn't be committed by men.

Secondly, in the UK a woman is killed by a partner or former partner every five days.

Third, 93% of domestic abusers in court are men.

Fourth, the stats don't demonstrate abuse which is a pattern of behaviour in order to maintain power, they are acts of violence. As I said, many perpetrators accuse their victims of abuse, the acts could be committed in self defense, they could be one off acts, the acts of violence are not defined; are we talking about a slap on the arm or strangulation?

Fifth, the stats don't include stalking, sexual abuse or homicide.

Mens Rights Activists who don't like the fact that men are overwhelmingly perpetrators of domestic abuse, like to twist stats to make out that abuse is mutual. It's not. Homicides like the one in the OP are often the culmination of a period of domestic abuse, and they happen when the abuser has lost control over their partner or former partner.

Abuse is about maintaining power and control, it's not a one of instance of violence. Women are not as violent as men, criminal statistics speak for themselves. In domestic homicide perpetrated by women, it's usually either self defense or after a long period of domestic violence.

Veebee89 · 22/08/2024 08:14

SparklyJadeFawn · 22/08/2024 08:09

I agree with that poster.

Most of the men I know are not violent.

It's a bit silly to get whipped into a frenzy by the news of a murder, and say "most men are like that".

There are plenty of normal men around.

When lucy letby killed lots of children, did we say, 'look at what all women are like"?

Maybe men said that about us.

Show quote history

Not all men are like that but it is nearly always men and you have no idea which men. A man’s occupation or family background or public persona doesn’t tell you anything about whether he is violent or has the potential to be, as the people who knew those men I listed could tell you.

SparklyJadeFawn · 22/08/2024 08:14

cupcaske123 · 22/08/2024 08:12

Your stats aren't worth much. If women were just as violent, 85% indictable crime, 88% of crimes against a person, 90% of murders and 98% of sexual offences, wouldn't be committed by men.

Secondly, in the UK a woman is killed by a partner or former partner every five days.

Third, 93% of domestic abusers in court are men.

Fourth, the stats don't demonstrate abuse which is a pattern of behaviour in order to maintain power, they are acts of violence. As I said, many perpetrators accuse their victims of abuse, the acts could be committed in self defense, they could be one off acts, the acts of violence are not defined; are we talking about a slap on the arm or strangulation?

Fifth, the stats don't include stalking, sexual abuse or homicide.

Mens Rights Activists who don't like the fact that men are overwhelmingly perpetrators of domestic abuse, like to twist stats to make out that abuse is mutual. It's not. Homicides like the one in the OP are often the culmination of a period of domestic abuse, and they happen when the abuser has lost control over their partner or former partner.

Abuse is about maintaining power and control, it's not a one of instance of violence. Women are not as violent as men, criminal statistics speak for themselves. In domestic homicide perpetrated by women, it's usually either self defense or after a long period of domestic violence.

Edited
Show quote history

Maybe it's not do woth gender, it's more to do with the person?

For example , Lucy letby going out and killing lots of babies, doesn't mean that all women will do that

Swipe left for the next trending thread