JKR being uncharacteristically quiet

[Jdugsgsgwyd]

Anyone else noticed since the news that JKR is being sued by Imane Khelif she's been very quiet, unless I'm mistaken she's hasn't tweeted at all in about a week.

and hasn't responded at all to the legal action being taken against her. This is very unlike her, I'm thinking she's been advised by her lawyers to keep quiet. Anyone else think she might have put her foot in it this time?

I'm backing your point up.

It’s not about “being nice” any more than challenging structural racism is about “being nice”. The fact that
you dismiss/ mock/ deride it as such again just demonstrates your total lack of awareness and consideration/ understanding the broader issues at stake here, and the actual humanity of the individuals (and groups of individuals) who are harmed by the dogmatism that you promoting in the name of “science”.

And again.

Why did the court of arbitration for sport rule it was unfair for certain DSD XY males to participate unrestricted in women's athletics but the IOC chose to ignore the relevance of this ruling to how differences in sex would impact on safety and fairness in women's boxing, and instead decided to make it open season on women by having entry requirements based on a F in the passport not biological sex?

Ah ok, I thought so but wasn't sure!

Answer the million dollar question (as it's worth millions) about why the IOC threw women boxers under the bus rather than dancing around ignoring the single most crucial question that's been upheld in the highest court of international sport previously which looked at the science involved and differences in biology.

I'm tired of this question being ignored in the midst of smearing JKR.

It is the ONLY relevant point.

Why do you expect me to answer for these bodies? Presumably because they came to different conclusions about the justice of different practices. It’s almost like there might be space for differences in opinion here and that life, sex, human bodies, identity, sporting ability and “fairness” in sport is not just black and white…

She's one of those pesky women who won't be quiet and do as she's told.

He has a vagina and 'internal testes'?

Iiiiiinteresting.

I expect you to be able to come up with a coherent argument about why you back the IOC position despite the ruling by the court of arbitration for sport.

What is the problem with the findings of the court of arbitration in sport over their decision to exclude athletes identified as DSD XY males under certain conditions?

And why is it inappropriate to be identifying DSD XY males in other sports if they hold a known and recognised unfair advantage in athletics?

Especially in light of the extra issues surrounding safety in boxing.

So yes, I do expect you to be able to answer the questions at this level of scrutiny rather than dancing around prattling about women being bigoted and mean.

Stop avoiding the point which you well understand.

Thanks in advance for you full explanation on this.

I’m hoping that the IOC give their heads a wobble in time for the 2028 Olympics and don’t rely on what’s written on an elite athletes passport or birth certificate!

Cheek swab and further investigation if required!

Was the Court of Arbitration for Sport's decision based on a general position or did it relate to a particular individual such as Semenya?

To be clear I've no fixed view on the sex the two boxers concerned but I think it's not as binary as XX/XY.

The decision affected all DSD XY athletes in athletics because it allowed World Athletics to to set criteria to entry which all DSD XY athletes now have to adhere to and demonstrate they are within the requirements of.

What is the problem with the findings of the court of arbitration in sport over their decision to exclude athletes identified as DSD XY males under certain conditions?

I’ve already said on numerous threads that I do not have a fixed opinion on how to stratify inclusion in elite sports. This is a really complex question- and I’m not an expert in this area. I have said I recognise there’s a legitimate debate to be had about the inclusion criteria for participation in women’s sports, but that does not involve the kind of online bullying and hatred / name calling that has been directed towards IK, by JKR and others.
(My personal suspicion is that sticking to strict, binary sex-stratification in sports is not serving the interests and empowerment of women as a group, but rather entrenching perceptions of female inferiority- but I know that’s far too radical a position for most of mumsnet and I’m not fixed on it).

whatever the solution for ensuring inclusion I believe that it’s absolutely imperative that elite sports are inclusive to all people regardless of sex and gender, and that includes women (and men) with diverse sex development and gender diverse people.

At the moment I support the OC’s position as the simplest and fairest solution , in the absence of scientific consensus, and I do not accept that women’s sports are being destroyed or over-run by men pretending to be women. That clearly hasn’t happened. If it becomes a problem in the future perhaps the policy needs to be reviewed.

And why is it inappropriate to be identifying DSD XY males in other sports if they hold a known and recognised unfair advantage in athletics?

I do not accept the science on this is settled. And furthermore the language you are using here is wholly unclear (scientifically) and inappropriate (as a basic matter of humanity, justice and respect).

World athletics had to set these criteria on the basis of science - because it was all about establishing fairness.

Thus the science is used to demonstrate unfairness and competitive advantages. Without it, World Athletics couldn't set these criteria.

The IOC well know this decision and thus a court approved recognition of DSD XY males being problematic.

Rather than address what was inevitably going to become a concern, they pretended there was no issue and just ignored the ruling for boxing. This was a failure of duty of care to female boxers.

This then exposed the two athletes in question to a very predictable circus.

Had there been transparency and a explanation about why it was fair to include these two athletes (not by exposing their issues but setting entry requirements based on fairness and saying all competitors were within those) there wouldn't have been this 'harassment'. That was a failure of a duty of care to the DSD competitors.

This is why definitions of women matter. And if you are an XY DSD male you are not by default a woman and eligible for women's sport. You are a male, who under certain circumstances may be allowed to compete in women's sport. This entry requires extra scrutiny otherwise it undermines women's sport and would allow elite women's sport to become dominated by XY DSD males and trans identifying males with an F in their passport to the exclusion of females.

and would allow elite women's sport to become dominated by XY DSD males and trans identifying males with an F in their passport to the exclusion of females

maybe come back to us if and when this actually happens? (rather than just a projection/ fantasy/ fear of what could potentially happen…)

This is why definitions of women matter. And if you are an XY DSD male you are not by default a woman and eligible for women's sport. You are a male, who under certain circumstances may be allowed to compete in women's sport. This entry requires extra scrutiny otherwise it undermines women's sport and would allow elite women's sport to become dominated by XY DSD males and trans identifying males with an F in their passport to the exclusion of females.

well said

AIUI each sport has it's own rules. Athletics has had the rules it made tested bu the court and found wanting. It then adapted them.

Boxing is a regulatory mish mash and there is significant corruption in its regulators.

Does the IOC have the power to make rules off its own bat without any involvement from the recognised regulators?

Apart from Boxing were there other competitions in the 2024 Olympics where participation by people who are trans or had a DSD was an issue?

It's settled science enough to say that XY DSD males have a competitive advantage and therefore open categories to anyone with merely a F in their passport to enter women's sport is wholly inappropriate because its insufficient in terms of protecting the integrity and fairness of women's sport and ensuring the safety of women's sport.

It is settled enough to demonstrate the need to establish sex and when there is a problem then to conduct further tests to ensure there isn't a problem.

Stating this is a problem being termed as harassment in a blanket way without consideration to the actual problem because it's a way of stopping discussion of the problem. Stopping discussion of the problem allows the problem to continue to the detriment of women.

This framing as harassment has also then encouraged and enabled actual harassment of people like JKR as being evil, bigoted and variations of 'why won't she shut up and be kind' and others raising the abject derelictions of duty by the IOC and it's incoherent position given previous rulings by the court of Arbitration for sport and the decisions made by numerous governing bodies in sport who have acknowledged the huge fucking massive issue to women.

But yes, I appreciate everyone cracking on ignoring the substance at the heart of the issue in favour of sticking the boot of JKR. It's enlightening in terms of it's whatabouttery.

It certainly could have tried. It made zero attempt to. It's had time to do so. It wasn't interested in safety.

This has been rattling on in various forms since 2008 really.

The IOC shouldnt have abdicated responsibility to individual sports. It should have had the science and knowledge to set minimum standards years ago.

I have zero time for the excuses. It put women in an impossible position and arguably dangerous position.

Did you miss the Rio 800m when the medal winners were all male

Who are Melissa Bishop, Joanna Joswik and Lindsey Sharp?

We sure as hell know who Caster Semenya is despite no longer being eligible to enter the women's 800m. And being allowed to keep the gold.

They are the women who were robbed and denied fair competition and all the economic benefits and life opportunities that came with an Olympic medal.

And were never recognised as having lost that opportunity and moment.

Why exactly is JKR for the failures of the IOC to serve the interests of both DSD athletes and female athletes since 2008?

I'm curious.

Why is JKR guilty of evil for pointing out the lack of transparency and addressing the issue since three males with DSDs stood on top of a podium?

Why have we regressed to pre-2008 status in boxing?

Doesn't matter what Khelif's genitalia looked like when they were born, or that they were raised as a girl. At puberty it would have become very obvious that they suddenly had a huge physical advantage over other 'girls'. They were then probably snaffled up by unscrupulous coaches who saw a way to cheat the system. And so it started.

Being a woman isn't a 'feeling', it's a physiological fact. And if your body happens to have a Y chromosome, no matter how unexpectedly, then you don't get to get to enter a boxing ring and beat the shit out of women.

Anyone with a shred of decency knows that. But unscrupulous bastards, with their eyes on the prize, are deliberately ignoring it.

JKR has the best lawyers in the world to defend a factual truth. She has nothing to worry about.

Women are being told that mixed sex boxing is a progressive thing because otherwise some men might be sad. And if we dare point out that this is insane, we are bigots. Oh brave new world! However, when boxing sorts itself out with a proper regulator the likes of IK will find themselves ineligible again. Won’t make up for the women who lost out on medals and career prospects but hey, who cares about women’s stupid lives?

JFC,is there no end to these inconvenient facts?