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JKR being uncharacteristically quiet

1000 replies

Jdugsgsgwyd · 17/08/2024 14:42

Anyone else noticed since the news that JKR is being sued by Imane Khelif she's been very quiet, unless I'm mistaken she's hasn't tweeted at all in about a week.

and hasn't responded at all to the legal action being taken against her. This is very unlike her, I'm thinking she's been advised by her lawyers to keep quiet. Anyone else think she might have put her foot in it this time?

OP posts:
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16
AncientAndModern1 · 18/08/2024 01:18

Tandora · 18/08/2024 01:15

As above.

Your inability to answer is amusing. You know why and so do I.

SavageTomato · 18/08/2024 01:19

This is the inevitable result of anyone who seeks to hate on an even more marginalised community than the one they claim to represent. Jo thought she could control the beast. Sorry, sweetie, they will throw you under the bus too. Don't ever forget that. Don't think you are special, you're really not. Yours sincerely, a cis woman. Who pities you. Mwah xxx

FreedomDogs · 18/08/2024 01:24

AncientAndModern1 · 18/08/2024 01:11

Why do YOU think IK hasn’t denied it?

Why do YOU think Khelif should be bullied and pressured and harassed into sharing private medical information just to satisfy the curiosity of the peanut gallery even when she knows full well that whatever she says won't actually stop the harassment? You lot have already diagnosed her right down to the specific DSD you think she's got, if she says she's XY you'd just doubledown on calling her a man, and if she says she isn't, you'll just say she's lying. She could send a signed picture of her vagina to JKR at this point and you'd still not admit you could be wrong. She can't win by saying anything so why should she say anything?

AncientAndModern1 · 18/08/2024 01:28

FreedomDogs · 18/08/2024 01:24

Why do YOU think Khelif should be bullied and pressured and harassed into sharing private medical information just to satisfy the curiosity of the peanut gallery even when she knows full well that whatever she says won't actually stop the harassment? You lot have already diagnosed her right down to the specific DSD you think she's got, if she says she's XY you'd just doubledown on calling her a man, and if she says she isn't, you'll just say she's lying. She could send a signed picture of her vagina to JKR at this point and you'd still not admit you could be wrong. She can't win by saying anything so why should she say anything?

You know and I know that if IK had XX chromosomes they would say so. There’s nothing personal or private about it. It’s normal. There’s only one reason why IK hasn’t addressed the issue and that’s because they have XY chromosomes and male levels of testosterone (as confirmed by IK’s very own coach). That combination means male advantage which is the entire rationale for sex segregation in sport.

wincarwoo · 18/08/2024 08:20

@FreedomDogs genitalia is irrelevant. Chromosomes are.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/08/2024 08:26

SavageTomato · 18/08/2024 01:19

This is the inevitable result of anyone who seeks to hate on an even more marginalised community than the one they claim to represent. Jo thought she could control the beast. Sorry, sweetie, they will throw you under the bus too. Don't ever forget that. Don't think you are special, you're really not. Yours sincerely, a cis woman. Who pities you. Mwah xxx

Do you understand what is being discussed here?

Why is it "hating on" a "marginalised community" (which marginalised community do you think we are discussing here?) to say that women's sport should be exclusively for biological women who haven't had the benefit of male puberty?

RedToothBrush · 18/08/2024 08:38

There are some incredibly ill informed posts on this thread which are many years behind the conclusions of the court of arbitration for sport. This isn't a 'jkr is a witch' thing.

Firstly yes, sex is binary and remains so even with DSDs. Only males can have certain DSD conditions and only females can have certain DSD conditions.

XY DSD conditions confere an unfair advantage in women's sports in most cases. Numerous sports have looked at the science on this and decided to ban these conditions from competitive women's sport in order to protect the sport. What was starting to happen was coaches had begun to actively seek out XY DSD males to compete in women's sport because there were obvious financial rewards to this. This was coming at the expense of women. Caster Semenya is the best known example because Caster took the case to the court of arbitration for sport and they ruled in favour of athletes banning in most situations. There are certain conditions under which DSD male athletes can compete but there hasn't been a takeaway up of this because quite frankly it's not an easy win anymore.

In the case of Olympic boxing the trans issue is relevant not because these two boxers are trans but because of how the IOC chooses to define eligibility as a woman.

The IOC decided that the criteria of eligibility as a woman is an F in your passport. Now this is particularly problematic because of the number of countries who allow XY males with no DSD condition to freely change their passport as they wish. This effectively opens up women's boxing to all males, without exception, provided they have changed their passport. In the UK this could include males who don't have a GRC and merely prepared to change their passport. There's no need to 'live as' anything.

This is problematic because of the specific safety issues in boxing because it's a contact sport which already has concerns about the impact to participants.

The science we have shows that male puberty means that the most elite women can't compete on an even playing field with even below average males because of the difference in strength and women's bodies can not take that without significant levels of harm. They are more at risk from a punch of the same strength as a man taking that same punch.

Hence why contact sports are separated by sex from puberty - for safety reasons.

These advantages are retained by XY DSD males in the vast majority of cases. Hence why it is an issue for these two boxers. It carries significant risk to females boxers to allow them in the same competition. This is well known.

The IOC put inclusion of DSD males AND trans identifying males ahead of the safety of women in boxing despite being fully aware of the known issues with male competing with women. They also know thanks to what happened in the 800m in Rio, that this pushes women out of women's sport.

In these cases we are aware that these are DSD males where it hasn't been fully publicly identified as what type of DSD they have, but there is certainly evidence that in both cases, they are not in the very very tiny group which does not have male puberty. The lack of transparency around this, and the fact that the IOC don't have a policy to filter out cases to protect women from harm IS the major issue here.

And yes JKR is right to talk about this and to state it's unacceptable to be putting identity before physical safety.

Further to that, it then becomes about the very existence of women's sport and how important women sport is viewed. If any male can change their passport, then any male can decide 'i want an Olympic medal' and it's open season on the sport. Women will be edged out at all levels and sport will become closed.

Women were not permitted to even compete at boxing in the Olympics for many many years. It's only a very recent addition. This was cited as being due to safety concerns. Women had to fight for the sport to be included. Nicola Adams has talked about this.

So for the IOC to hold out so long against women's boxing on the grounds that it was unsafe for women, to move to a position just a few years later, where safety in women's boxing is totally overlooked just shows the level of sexism at play here. Women are treated with total contempt.

Even the IOCs position in not wanting to 'return to the bad old days' of 'invasive' sex testing doesn't hold water. The last time female athletes were asked whether they wanted to retain the tests the overwhelming majority supported keeping them. They were ignored. Not only that but the argument about being invasive doesn't hold water because of the number of other much more invasive tests that go on to prevent doping (and should pick up on abnormal testosterone results anyway).

In boxing we have this bizarre situation which I don't quite understand - either there's no dope testing going on (which risks unfairness, risk of harm to innocent opponents and risk of harm to those doping) or in effect, women who doped can be banned for having lower testosterone results than XY males who would not be banned. In other sports which require lowering of testosterone for participation this level is much higher than women can be banned for and occurs even for medical conditions.

In Khelif's case their own coach has talked about lowering testosterone levels. That's inconsistent with fairness in sport and having a level of testosterone which is permitted in all other sports for women. Science has demonstrated that even with lowered testosterone, there would still be an unfair competitive advantages and raised safety issues. That's a problem. Boxing is particularly sensitive to these issues.

The lack of transparency is incredibly concerning. And the future of women in boxing is at stake. There is significant prize money available to DSD athletes and their coaching a staff, if it remains unaddressed. This will also be available to trans competitors.

But time and again, we see on these threads arguments that sex isn't binary (it is), sex is complicated (it may be that it is but it's still definable and there's still science on outlying cases), the outlying cases that are used to argue the point are a tiny minority of DSD cases and the two in question almost certainly don't have those conditions, there is still a total lack of transparency in terms of what's going on and this puts women's sport at risk, there is a total lack of regard for women's safety because the focus is on identity and this is a priority issue which should NEVER happen in ANY sport, women are being silenced when asking questions and are being smeared as bigots rather than being seen as asking pretty basic things about safety, it leaves the door open to ALL males even without DSDs, there's a total abandonment of why women's sport was ever created, it neglects to address rulings in other sports by the court of arbitration for sport which identified real issues with DSDs XY males.

Sex remains important even in DSD cases which are not spotted at birth. DSDs present at some point - they don't remain invisible. They remain taboo but not invisible. And that's important to sport.

There's every accusation possible being leveled at women pointing this out. Including law suits. Women would have a very real case to take the IOC to court over lack of safety though too.

Everything is effectively weighed AGAINST women in this dynamic in favour of men and XY DSDs despite what is known and recognised by science.

But we have a hoard of virtue signalling knowledge it all's on MN who repeatedly demonstrate their lack of knowledge but want to bash women who have made the effort to understand the problems here. And not just bash. Absolutely destroy their careers.

It's funny Sharon Davies competed against women doping so knows a few things on the subject. Martinia Navratilova had a trans coach who she remains friends with so knows a few things on the subject. Nicola Adams was an olympic boxer so knows a few things on the subject. However the way they've been cast aside and treated is inexcusable.

This is a Mens Rights Movement hell bent on destroying women's sport by any means.

ZanyFox · 18/08/2024 08:53

Ill informed or not, there are plenty of people who find that JKRs obsession on the subject now borders on the, er, eccentric.

They aren't wrong to feel that way, it is their opinion. I thought the tweets about Imane by JKR were unpleasant. It's really put me off her tbh, and I was interested in what she had to say beforehand.

RedToothBrush · 18/08/2024 09:03

ZanyFox · 18/08/2024 08:53

Ill informed or not, there are plenty of people who find that JKRs obsession on the subject now borders on the, er, eccentric.

They aren't wrong to feel that way, it is their opinion. I thought the tweets about Imane by JKR were unpleasant. It's really put me off her tbh, and I was interested in what she had to say beforehand.

Standing up for women's rights being viewed as 'eccentric' or whatever else you suggest IS a central part of the issue though.

It's woman hating. How very dare women speak for themselves and stand up for their rights.

"Women have all the rights they need. The right to remain silent" Bewilderness's Rules of Misogyny

Viviennemary · 18/08/2024 09:03

ZanyFox · 18/08/2024 08:53

Ill informed or not, there are plenty of people who find that JKRs obsession on the subject now borders on the, er, eccentric.

They aren't wrong to feel that way, it is their opinion. I thought the tweets about Imane by JKR were unpleasant. It's really put me off her tbh, and I was interested in what she had to say beforehand.

I've never liked her much. She seems to think because she is rich and a successful author her opinion is worth more. It absolutely isn't. She seems to hound trans people. This is bullying IMHO. And this Olympic case isn't a trans issue IMHIO.

RedToothBrush · 18/08/2024 09:04

And yes tone policing of women is sexist.

Men don't get policed or required to be nice in the same way.

RedToothBrush · 18/08/2024 09:07

Viviennemary · 18/08/2024 09:03

I've never liked her much. She seems to think because she is rich and a successful author her opinion is worth more. It absolutely isn't. She seems to hound trans people. This is bullying IMHO. And this Olympic case isn't a trans issue IMHIO.

Can't you read?

It's not about trans. It is about male entry to women's sport being down to what's in your passport not your biology.

That therefore encompasses transwomen and DSDs as being women.

Which destroys women's sport.

Which bit of this is difficult to understand? You are right it's not about trans issues.

It's very very firmly about Women and Women's rights. And people who are not women destroying it because we are ignoring sex.

ZanyFox · 18/08/2024 09:07

Tone policing?!

The irony.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 18/08/2024 09:09

Viviennemary · 18/08/2024 09:03

I've never liked her much. She seems to think because she is rich and a successful author her opinion is worth more. It absolutely isn't. She seems to hound trans people. This is bullying IMHO. And this Olympic case isn't a trans issue IMHIO.

I’m sure she’s devastated.

She doesn’t ’hound trans people’. She stands up for women and girls and calls out MEN. Find one example where she’s ‘hounded’ a trans man. Her wealth enables her stand up to people whereas the mere mortals face being sacked from jobs for stating fact.

People (like you) just hate women having a voice.

RedToothBrush · 18/08/2024 09:10

ZanyFox · 18/08/2024 09:07

Tone policing?!

The irony.

You are totally ignoring the issues.

I'm not tone policing. I'm telling you, you are missing the actual substance. Your tone is irrelevant.

ZanyFox · 18/08/2024 09:19

RedToothBrush · 18/08/2024 09:10

You are totally ignoring the issues.

I'm not tone policing. I'm telling you, you are missing the actual substance. Your tone is irrelevant.

Oh give over! Berating people on social media and telling them how they just don't understand, is boorish and arrogant.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/08/2024 09:22

Viviennemary · 18/08/2024 09:03

I've never liked her much. She seems to think because she is rich and a successful author her opinion is worth more. It absolutely isn't. She seems to hound trans people. This is bullying IMHO. And this Olympic case isn't a trans issue IMHIO.

No, she thinks that because she's insanely rich and never needs to work again she can afford to speak out in the way that women with children to feed and mortgages to pay can't.

Do you want to spend a nanosecond thinking about whether it's right that women with children to feed and mortgages to pay can't afford to say that humans can't change sex or that biological males shouldn't be competing in women's sports for fear of losing their livelihoods?

RedToothBrush · 18/08/2024 09:28

ZanyFox · 18/08/2024 09:19

Oh give over! Berating people on social media and telling them how they just don't understand, is boorish and arrogant.

Thanks for your valued opinion.

Can we deal with actual substance please?

Why are DSD XY males restricted in athletics with the consent and approval of the Court of Arbitration for Sport?

But the IOC sees fit not to have any restrictions in women's boxing?

Anyone?

toastcrusts · 18/08/2024 09:31

Jumpingthruhoops · 17/08/2024 15:00

There wouldn't be a Harry Potter cast if it wasn't for her.

What makes her a pain in the neck exactly?

Standing up for women's rights and not sitting down and shutting up

toastcrusts · 18/08/2024 09:44

FreedomDogs · 17/08/2024 16:00

It's interesting how so much time has been spent hooting with derision at politicians for talking about women with penises and men with vaginas - but now all of a sudden a man can have a vagina, just because you've found a particular individual you want to attack?

This isn't about "basic biology " when you can't even keep to your own rules - this is just about prejudice. The fact is if Khelif does have a DSD, that means her and individuals like her disprove the foundation of your argument that sex is simple and binary, and you can't have that so you have to attack her.

DSDs are not the same as transgenderism in the same way as a mixed race person is not the same as Rachel Dolezal.

A person can be male with a DSD that causes atypical genitalia but that doesn't make them female. This isn't a gotcha.

Tandora · 18/08/2024 09:44

RedToothBrush · 18/08/2024 09:07

Can't you read?

It's not about trans. It is about male entry to women's sport being down to what's in your passport not your biology.

That therefore encompasses transwomen and DSDs as being women.

Which destroys women's sport.

Which bit of this is difficult to understand? You are right it's not about trans issues.

It's very very firmly about Women and Women's rights. And people who are not women destroying it because we are ignoring sex.

Can we stop calling people “DSDs” please, or “XY DSDs”. It would be like calling people with autism- “autisms”. It just displays your total disregard for the actual personhood of these people.

RedToothBrush · 18/08/2024 09:45

toastcrusts · 18/08/2024 09:31

Standing up for women's rights and not sitting down and shutting up

How very dare a woman with money raise concerns in line with her own interests?

I mean, it's not as if rich men try and do this is it?

Oh.

RedToothBrush · 18/08/2024 09:48

Tandora · 18/08/2024 09:44

Can we stop calling people “DSDs” please, or “XY DSDs”. It would be like calling people with autism- “autisms”. It just displays your total disregard for the actual personhood of these people.

I'll ask again about the substance and ignore the tone policing.

Why is it the court of arbitration ruled against DSD XY males in athletics?

Why has the IOC effectively ignored this, and why does it have an open door policy to all males in olympic women's boxing including both trans identifying males and DSD XY males?

Why is the safety of females in boxing being ignored in favour of identity politics and 'being nice' to males?

This is the issue. It's not about identity and being nice.

Vic6 · 18/08/2024 09:51

W1nnweD1nner · 17/08/2024 15:56

But how can somebody go through male puberty with female genitals?

The witch hunt and yes cyber bullying re this is just awful.

If you want to understand more about DSD please read Dr Emma Hilton’s explanation. She’s on Twitter and is an expert.

IK might have had female genitalia but with internal testes. Her body would have produced testosterone during male puberty (due to the internal testes), it then would become apparent due to changes throughout the body, this in turn would give HUGE advantage over an XX female, as even if you try and decrease testosterone, the fact that you’ve gone through male puberty means that every bit of your body, muscles, bone, reach, power, EVERYTHING gives you male advantage, XY advantage!

toastcrusts · 18/08/2024 09:52

RedToothBrush · 18/08/2024 09:45

How very dare a woman with money raise concerns in line with her own interests?

I mean, it's not as if rich men try and do this is it?

Oh.

?

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