To think this is fucking crazy

[itstheendoftheworldasweknowitnow]

We’re en route to a holiday rental in France. I wasn’t sure if the pool was shared or not between other guests so emailed the owner to ask. This is his reply - which I put in to google translate
Could you tell me if sharing the swimming pool with us who occupy the ground floor bothers you and for what reason? Recently we refused the rental because the wife and the two young daughters were veiled; are you english or muslim? We do not want you to make the trip and see yourself refused access to our property for reasons of displaying religious beliefs which are very resented by the neighborhood.

Fuck Fuck Fuck
What the hell do I do?
I am not a Muslim.
I am also not a racist.

This isn't racism.

It's discrimination - Muslim isn't a race.

Not just non-whites (can't stand 'POC', sorry, it sounds racist to me). DD has a schoolfriend who loves France, speaks French superbly and has now married a Frenchman. When she arrived in France she could not get any employment, because she is English (and white, btw). She only found a job with an international company which took her on to fill their 'diversity' quota. That's France.

@Grammarnut

That might be down to race, OTOH it can be down to French companies sometimes being quite bad at recognizing non-French academic qualifications and/or recognizing equivalency.

I know quite a few youngish Brits largely raised here and probably more importantly schooled here who have got jobs with French employers OK.

This is pre-Brexit, though. Were they so difficult about qualifications then?

Yes.

There’s no doubt Brexit has made it worse but even prior to lots of French employers were wary of non French quals.

That said are some Brits and other non French nationals happily work locally in some professions but AFAIK they’ve had to go back to school at least to some degree to get French qualifications.

Have to say It’s probably easier as a Brit you have a niche/very specialist job, FWIW one of the most famous football presenters on Canal+/beIN is very much English.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darren_Tulett

It's not exactly easy for French people to find job either though, unemployment is a problem for everyone.

Also, I really don't believe this diversity quota thing, it's not a thing in France, we don't collect data about race or ethnicity.

I can totally see how a lot of French people can be prejudiced to muslims, but the idea that "superbly french-speaking white English women" are systematically discriminated against is just a step too far.

Actually it wouldn’t, because the Israeli government and its actions in the last 12 months, which were specifically referred to, isn’t responsible for religious extremism dating back many years. To imply that the latter just popped up this last year was reductionist and simplistic, to put it mildly.

Also, I really don't believe this diversity quota thing, it's not a thing in France, we don't collect data about race or ethnicity.

That’s because France lacks racial awareness and wants to cover up things like deaths of poc in police custody.

Outdated and incorrect. Islamophobia is recognised as a type of racism. Look it up if you don’t believe me.

This is incorrect information that’s been repeated on this thread.

I am not sure a diversity quota was a French requirement, but a requirement of the firm's home country.
Not sure whether to say France should collect such data or not - identity politics is a woke nightmare, so probably not.

Why is it not considered discrimination or racist to demand women be veiled when visiting certain countries?

It very much is discrimination - I don't think many would argue it isn't. Women (and men) in Iran have been killed protesting over the law demanding women cover their hair. I am glad I live in the UK where there are no laws saying you have to cover - but equally I don't want the UK to be a country where you are not allowed to cover your hair if you want to. Most normal people in the UK have a negative opinion of Iran's laws. Its reasonable to have a negative opinion of countries/people that want to make women show their hair (not that I am saying France/the Frenchman in the OP is as bad as Iran. Just responding to your comparison).

Oh look, this cuts both ways!

A French Muslim is complaining because French campsites don't have separate swimming pools for men and women!

For those who don't speak French, Ben le Patriote is French of Algerian origin who chides people for focusing on what divides us rather than unites.

I am a "superbly French speaking white English woman" and have never felt even remotely discriminated against in France or had any difficulties finding employment.

It's far easier to be an English woman in France (even if your French is less than superb) than it is to be visibly Muslim (even if you were born and bred in France).

Thanks for the update, OP. It's interesting that the hosts are in their 80s! I find that somewhat reassuring. It doesn't excuse their views on Muslims, but maybe it explains why they are clueless enough to express those views so freely. I want to believe that the younger generation of French people are more tolerant. That said, most French people who vote for the Rassemblement national are probably not keen to advertise the fact. Praise be that the RN were defeated in the recent election... the majority of French people made it clear in a democratic vote that they did not want a racist party to be running their country.

Incidentally, I've also met some really sweet elderly neighbours in the UK who shocked me by matter-of-factly expressing their racist views, so this kind of phenomenon is not exclusively confined to France.😥

There are multiple aspects of French law that I don't agree with, including the fact that burkha wearing is banned in public, the fact that secondary school students aren't allowed to wear the hijab, and the fact that the government doesn't keep track of data about race and ethnicity. But this Airbnb host has gone much further with his racism, by seemingly refusing to host Muslims at all.

I do think there's a big difference between countries like Iran, which is governed by a theocracy and condones numerous human rights violations, and a country like France, which claims to be a liberal democracy and a state that respects human rights. In the case of France, you can argue that when the government discriminates against Muslims, it's hypocrisy, because they're not living up to their own democratic ideals. Whereas I'm not sure that the current government of Iran claims to adhere to democracy in the first place. That doesn't mean that the discriminatory practices in France are OK (far from it!) but I hope that there is potential for democratic change, as there is in the UK.

Islamophobia is “fear of Islam” … a made up word used incorrectly in this context. Look it up.

'Islamophobia' is a translation of a French term. It is used to refer to hatred, prejudice or discrimination against Muslims, and has been used in this way for over a century.

Regardless of what term people want to use, hatred, prejudice and discrimination against any group of people on the basis of their faith is wrong and should be condemned. It should be unacceptable to express such things against any such group.

Unfortunately, the term used by many to describe these things when they happen against Muslims is one that people who seek to minimise or dismiss the wrongfulness of those things can use to deflect away from the actual issue and say things like 'it's not a real phobia', 'it's not irrational', 'it's not a real word'.

Call it Islamophobia, Anti-Muslim prejudice, religious discrimination, or whatever. If people can find it in their hearts to do so, though, I would ask people, please, to recognise that it (whatever term they want to use for it) is not ok.

The job market in France is very very different, as is their education system. If your daughter's friend was so in love with France she should have learned for most jobs there is a degree or a professional qualification required, and just speaking French 'superbly' and being married to a French guy is not enough and wont make her stand out. Even for jobs like waiters, secretaries or receptionists which you get relatively easily do with zero/little experience in the UK, France has suitable qualification that also offers work experience.
So it's not about racism etc, just understanding you cant just show up and be keen to get a job. Because for each job there will be dozens of French people with experience and a diploma.

Enough already with this 'it's a made up word'. How do you think words enter the language? People make them up, in response to phenomena in real life that they are trying to describe!

In real life I'm an academic and a medievalist. I can confidently tell you that all of the words in the English language have been 'made up' at some point or other throughout history. If you spoke English in the 12th century, you would be using a very different vocabulary.

The word Islamophobia is a 'neologism', which means a word that has entered the dictionary relatively recently. That doesn't mean it's not a valid word. Here's the Wikipedia entry on neologisms:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neologism

The Wikipedia entry on Islamophobia is also informative:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia

Any person who specialises in linguistics will tell you that language is constantly evolving, expanding and changing.

As I said before, the word Islamophobia seems to me to be perfectly apt to describe the message that the Booking.com host sent to the OP.

To be honest, the word Islamophobia is useful when it comes to describing some of the medieval texts I teach, where Christians are seen as being 'right' and the Arabic/Muslim world seen as being wrong.

Sadly, Islamophobia has a long tradition in the Western world (see the Crusades). That said, even in medieval times, you can find texts that contest the binary opposition of good Christian vs evil Muslim.

Obviously I meant why didn’t you ask earlier if the pool was shared. That was the question that the OP asked en route to her holiday, when it was too late to change anything. She didn’t ask if the owner was racist.

I wouldn’t have booked without clarifying whether or not the pool was shared. If that was an important feature, I wouldn’t have left that question to the last minute.

@Grammarnut - she's 'les rosbifs'. Yup, another issue.

I'm pleased to say DH is none of those things, but as a country we don't understand the French generally.

What @Tulipsareredvioletsarebue too in spades in fairness. Employment laws are different, the education system is I think superior.

@itstheendoftheworldasweknowitnow the Islamic teaching about challenging things has been mentioned a couple of times on this thread (a Muslim I have listened to refers to "educating" rather than challenging, as it is often lack of awareness rather than hatred which often affects how people think about things) - do you think you could gently ask the owners about their email, whether they were referring to all Muslims or just Muslims who were wanting sole use of the pool/veiled (which may be what is not acceptable to locals?)/wearing burkinis (which have been banned/not banned on and off for years in France?) I doubt they'd mind clarifying if you ask in a non confrontational way and it would lay to bed some of the argy bargy on this thread as there would be clear understanding about what was said. You could also gently say that in England it is usual to say that people can be both English and Muslim at the same time and ask them if they think it is the same in France.

Incidentally, Provence is very touristy and you get tourists from all over the world and I haven't personally seen overt racism there. Provence is otoh also a draw for the wealthy, and I have seen a fair bit of snootiness towards non wealthy - though not related to race! Some towns and cities are fairly multicultural. But,again otoh, locals in many touristy places can be quite insular during off seasons and so there may be some odd thinking...

I really think it would be useful to some of the posters here to know what the owners' true and honest thinking is here.

Not the subject of the thread, but it is so interesting looking at the polyglots and scientific advances and learning of the Muslim world at this time - I think centred around constantinople? I love the idea of the mechanical Arabian Elephant Clock - a mechanical work of art standing some 3 metres tall - it illustrates the period for me - awesome. The medieval period in the west is known as the dark ages because there was a shut down of thinking and learning and education for anyone other than Church scholars, if I remember rightly. And then in the Renaissance or thereabouts learning in the west picked up again, and all the amazing ideas from centuries earlier were "rediscovered" and talked about again, and advances made. So interesting how it all happened. The crusades saw Christians vs Muslims fighting to death over land, the Holy land, still fought about today.