To think this is fucking crazy

[itstheendoftheworldasweknowitnow]

We’re en route to a holiday rental in France. I wasn’t sure if the pool was shared or not between other guests so emailed the owner to ask. This is his reply - which I put in to google translate
Could you tell me if sharing the swimming pool with us who occupy the ground floor bothers you and for what reason? Recently we refused the rental because the wife and the two young daughters were veiled; are you english or muslim? We do not want you to make the trip and see yourself refused access to our property for reasons of displaying religious beliefs which are very resented by the neighborhood.

Fuck Fuck Fuck
What the hell do I do?
I am not a Muslim.
I am also not a racist.

This.

It hasn’t worked out well for the UK and French people don’t want to lose their identity.

If you feel strongly about it OP don’t go but I think money will matter more than your convictions.

Personally I have not returned to a pool where other people were wearing burkas and full dress.

« Islam says if we see injustice, we should try to challenge it with our actions; if we can't, then we should try to challenge it with words; and if we can't, then we should challenge it in our hearts.«

Wisdom indeed!

in a way what shocks me most about the first message is ‘English or Muslim?’ - millions are BOTH.

I think it is quite hard for individuals to challenge race/religion-based injustice in a way that effects positive change. It needs careful thought and is usually best done by some form of collective action..

I am from a group that is subjected to discrimination and slurs. The amount of discrimination varies from time to time, but it's on the rise currently. It's not particularly fashionable to defend my group at present, and many people actually signal their virtuousness by repeating the slurs against my group.

I tend to think it is only by getting to know individuals and making relationships with them that you can create better mutual understanding, in the longer term. But for the purists this looks too much like compromise.

In terms of France, I'm currently watching the series Un Village Francais. You can stream it free on Rakuten TV.

It's absolutely brilliant in terms of how hard it is to make choices and or effect change in Occupied France. It shows how compromised we all are.

@AnnaSewell I'm sorry that you're going through this sort of prejudice too.

Thanks @Scirocco.

I do believe in resilience.

One could argue that it's simply that - in my circle - people who I agree with on some matters, have very different views about a political matter. But this spills over all too often/too easily into some very stereotypical attitudes. So I find myself gravitating a bit more to people from my own background, because it seems to me that they have a better understanding and it feels a bit safer. I don't only want to hang out with people who agree with me. (But that doesn't mean I want to spend my entire time having fruitless arguments!)

I’d like to see such a case go to court.
The owner would have excellent odds to win quickly.

I've never understood the thinking behind this rule. Fat men in speedos look gross.

What a kind sentence. . Do you think fat women shouldn’t wear swimsuits either?

The thing is, if wearing a burkhini is banned at all municipal swimming pools and public beaches in France, I can't see how the owner of a holiday home is going to be breaking the law if he wants to have the same rule on his private property.

I have hugely mixed feelings about the burkha ban, personally speaking. I think burkhas are awful, repressive garments and the wearing of them should not be encouraged in modern western societies. But banning women from wearing them isn't going to mean those women go out wearing jeans and T-shirts. It will just stop them from going out at all.

My own feelings are irrelevant to the fact that the wearing of burkhas or burkhinis is not permitted in public places or in many private places in France.

If you have a problem with that, you don't need to avoid this particular gite. You need to avoid France.

You could decide to take your custom elsewhere on principle, but if that "elsewhere" is still in France you are still putting money into the economy of a country where attitudes analogous to that of this gite owner are enshrined in law.

So don't go to France. I wouldn't go to Iran, even though I'm sure there are plenty of amazing things to see there.

The rule has nothing to do with how good men look in Speedos. It's for hygiene reasons. They don't want men to wear the same shorts they might have been wearing round town all week in the swimming pool, so they make them wear something they would never wear unless they were going swimming.

It's a policy mostly enforced in municipal swimming pool - it's not pro speedos per se, it's anti-shorts, that can be worn all day as regular shorts and carry a lot of dirt (which would trigger a chemical reaction to chlorine, create fumes and be uncomfortable for everyone) whereas no one will walk in the streets with speedos or trunks (which are generally totally accepted as well by the way).

I also suspect that they want to avoid "barboteurs" in favour of sporty swimmers who are generally more loyal customers, spend less time in the pool and are just more disciplined (in the case of municipal swimming pools)

Municipal swimming pools are pretty cheap in France, and generally really clean, but it comes with a bit of a sacrifice on style and facilities, that can be very basic, don't expect nice shower gel or fancy hairdryer)

That private hotel swimming pools apply the same policy is probably down to laziness so they don't have to come up with their own set of policy.

@MissScarletInTheBallroom the issue isn't with him saying his pool is shared so counts as a public space; the issue is that he explicitly stated he has refused to rent to Muslims in the past and would refuse again, including telling the OP that she would not be welcome if Muslim and expressing a view that a person could be either English or Muslim (but presumably not both in his eyes). That's prejudiced and could potentially fall foul of anti-discrimination law as religion is a protected characteristic. All the OP had asked was whether the pool was shared, but the owner jumped to a conclusion and exposed his prejudice.

The owner's reply suggests that there have been issues in the past. It's not clear what those issues might have been because he mentions the shared pool issue and the religious clothing issue. Maybe the owner is a card carrying racist, or maybe he's been in trouble with the local mayor for letting people swim in burkhinis, or maybe the last time someone asked this question it unleashed a massive drama.

Either way, he needs to be much clearer about whether the pool is shared or private and whether there are any rules about swimwear.

I've found this thread very informative.

And it's made me wonder how France squares this with the ECHR right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion.

I think you only have to look at the websites of groups like Free Speech Union or Christian Concern or Sex Matters to know we are having our own issues in relation to freedom of expression and belief in this country. I could start talking about Scottish Hate Crime legislation - but that would make rather a long posting.

It's entirely relevant when posters are assuming the gite owner is racist for not wanting women with "Muslim veils" in his pool. He's not necessarily racist, he seems to be anti-Muslim, but Islam is not a race. It seems kind of racist of you to assume all Muslims are black or brown people.

Not at all, but as a fatty myself I wouldn't inflict on others the spectacle of my lardy arse in a string bikini or thong, but wear a respectable one-piece that covers the worst of the horrors!

Thank you! That makes sense, it had never occurred to me that people might do that.

I'm shocked. Can you not be English and Muslim? They're not mutually exclusive. The Airbnb host is racist and and Islamophobia through and through!

I think Airbnb would refund you if you refused to stay in the home owned by a racist.

Speedos are not just briefs though? There are different types….. including looser swim shorts. Maybe you didn’t know that?

You’re wrong actually, if you care. Islamophobia is indeed a type of racism but I won’t waste time arguing with people denying that. Edited to remove ‘Fuck your Darvo’

Ane yet here you are.

Please note that I was careful to use the term 'anti-Muslim' as the term 'Islamophobia' is used as a way to close down conversation about the topic. As you intend.

Anyway. Good job on the editing to remove the DARVO comment ;o)

For general info the swimwear rules for municipal pools are usually something along the lines of:

”un maillot de bain, une ou deux pieces, en matiere moulante, et opaque …”

(please excuse the lack of accents, using an English keyboard.)

So all swim suits should be tight fitting and opaque…oh and in addition don’t forget the swim hat…

I think the term Islamophobia is entirely appropriate here.

Incidentally, if you do a google search with the terms 'Islamophobia' and 'racism', you will find all sorts of articles discussing the racist implications of Islamophobia, or if you prefer, anti-Muslim prejudice.

Again, Islam is a religion not a race, but anti-Muslim discourse is packed with racist tropes.