F*cking hate the f*cking 11+ system

[StressyStressHead]

DS1 passed and is at a grammar. DS2 is due to sit it in September and prep is not going well.

DS1 had a tutor in yr 5 just for an hour a week and was very enthusiastic as he enjoys that sort of thing. DS2 didn’t want a tutor (fine - i always said I would never force anything on either child) so has been doing prep with me. Just an hour a week. Sometimes sessions go well - often, they don’t. He often has meltdowns if he gets something wrong, and wants to give up and it is so bloody hard to deal with.

ImI don’t care whether my kids go to a grammar or not but the issue is, the non-grammars in our area are not great so if you want a chance at a good school, you’ve no choice but to do the test.

Without sounding like an arse, for those who are bound to make comments like “children shouldn’t need tutoring to pass the test” “why would you put your child under that much pressure”, please understand that:

a) despite what the local authorities will tell you, the 11+ tests kids on lots of things they have NOT learnt in school so to expect them to sit it with no prep is unrealistic

b) competition is ridiculous - kids from miles outside our area sit the test and apply for our local grammars. They have MASSIVE amounts of tutoring which pushes up the pass mark (there’s no set pass mark, it’s based on how the cohort performs that year)

c) believe me, I am doing my utmost not to pressure him but he needs to do some practice - he’s worried all his friends will pass and go to grammar without him - and he’s probably right as so many of them are doing summer 11+ courses and hours of tuition

d) some friends who don’t live in a grammar area have said to me that if he doesn’t want to do the prep, just to tell him fine, that’s his decision but it’s down to him if he ends up at a rubbish school - which seems bloody harsh for a 10 year old!!

I keep telling him this does not define him, it simply gives him a wider choice of schools but I know he’ll feel a failure if he doesn’t pass.

Not sure what my AIBU is, just need to vent.

Op it's the Maths content you need anything else is extra.

He needs to understand what nvr is and the types that may appear. English, vocab

They haven5 said they’ll get rid of grammars either. This is a hypothetical discussion about what would improve education, not a discussion if government policy.
However - give them time. They’ve only been in a month. There’s a lot to sort out.

When I'm in charge, there will be admission by fair banding and ballot and extensive school buses. It's the only way.

Here in the Netherlands the system means that your child level will be determined a year before they leave primary (they will be tested every year and those scores coupled with a recommendation from their teachers will determine their level). I’m not a huge fan of the system because it’s incredibly divisive and a child’s parents socio economic background/ sense of entitlement and skin colour are sadly the things that can make the difference.

It sounds like the OP had an expectation of her youngest based on what her oldest did. All she can now do is take a step back, her child will either do the work or he won’t. Even if he did do the work, it wouldn’t be a guarantee of success. I can not fathom why putting 10 year olds under this amount of ‘your future depends on this’ pressure could ever be a good thing. Just because the OP might not be saying it it doesn’t mean that the environment her son is in, where her sons friends and older sibling are fully invested in the system, isn’t making him feel this way.

The tutor route should have been taken a lot earlier but if she wants one last throw of the dice, I would suggest she finds the best tutor she can find and set up an assessment of her son’s abilities. There’s no point in pushing a child who isn’t up to it academically.

As a parent you are dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t.

Really? That's not been our experience at all.

DD2 went to a secondary modern. Of her friendship group of 8, all have degrees, 3 (including DD2) have Masters and all 3 of those work in a field directly related to their Masters. The others are all in professional jobs, ranging from doctor, to police officer to teacher.

Do you think they sit around bemoaning their 11+ result? I can 100% assure you that they do not.

But you can usually tell by 11 which kids will be academic and which will practical.

This opinion is not supported by the data, as a matter of fact @IMustDoMoreExercise. There is no direct link established between 11+ score and GCSE results 5 years later. Grammar schools have this data but are, unsurprisingly, not too keen to share it.

This is because the vast majority of children experience peaks and troughs in their educational achievements – some peak early but don't really kick on, while others are slow developers. There are a myriad reasons for this, both in and out of school, but it is totally incorrect to say you can tell which is which by the age of 10 (most DCs taking the 11+ are 10, not 11).

They could move to the other type of school if their talents change.

The first 2/3 years of teaching in both types of school would be very similar, because every child needs a basic education. Virtually everything I learned in years 7 and 8 was useful in life. It is in years 9/10 onwards, that the curriculum becomes too academic for a lot of practical kids and it puts them off and they just drop out.

@IMustDoMoreExercise "They could move to the other type of school if their talents change."

Well, if you entirely change the system, they could......

Well the whole system would be new as we don't have enough grammar schools at the moment and we don't have any technical schools at all.

The idea of being channelled into either Latin or metalwork at the age of 10 is so profoundly depressing.

It’s not you and it’s not your child. I’d get him a tutor for the last few weeks tbh. Children will react differently with a tutor than with their parents.

@StressyStressHead

Haven't read the entire thread but I feel your pain. There is a disparity between grammar and non grammar and you can't get round it. I have one at grammar and two not - they decided they didn't even want to sit the rest in the end.
I would recommend bond online. Mine found it more motivating as it was short tests, immediately marked and explained. I tutor for 11+ and found it hard to tutor mine as I'm the parent. This was so helpful.

A sweeping statement, might I say.

People have already told us that where they are, 23% of kids go to grammar, therefore there is no way the alternative is 'comprehensive'. 1:4 kids go to grammar.

If the acceptance rate is 1:10 (of those who actually apply...) that is heading towards 'super-selective'. Often kids travel miles, for hours, because they have no catchment area. As a result, yes, their absence from the equation will have a lesser effect on the non grammars.

But that doesn't mean all non-grammars are 'comps'. It is a name used to disguise the reality of being told you failed at 10.

I read about the Dutch system a while back, and blimey, it's complex, isn't it??

It's interesting because we in England think all European education is a socialist Utopia!

It's a rubbish system. I have a very bright DD, exceeding in everything at school and always has been, but I can't afford the level of tutoring most of her classmates and year group are getting and it will piss me right off if she doesn't get in and other kids not doing anywhere near as well at school do, just because their parents can afford more /one to one tutoring (and they do need tutoring for the way the test works, it's not a technique they are allowed to teach in state primaries, no 11+ prep allowed at all without paying for it.) It's hundreds of pounds a month.

I think I want move out of the area before my DS has to do it!

We just had comps where I grew up - at the time my mum wasn't happy as at least two of her children would have got into a grammar if we'd been in the area (didn't really matter as we both got straight A* results at GCSE anyway) but you could pass the test then without tutoring and nobody was tutored, it was completely different.

You shouldn’t have given him the option not to have a tutor. You must have known he would turn it down. You clearly want him to go to the better school and he’s clearly too young to know what’s best for him. You should have been the adult and made the decision for him.

I work in education and I have done all I could to stop selection in the field. One oft heard truism is that 80% of parents support it, and 80% of parents will scream like bats when their kid doesn’t get into a grammar school.

if you value the grammar school for your older child, you have to accept that the selection process mans that there will be at least 3 children failing for everyone who passes.

FWIW we had one child who passed the 11+, went to a grammar, then on to a Russell Group university and ended with a first class degree...and another who didn't take the 11+, went to a RG university and ended up with a first class degree. So maybe don't over worry...

Gently suggest to him that he may be happier having a tutor. It will help him achieve better results and go to the same school as his friends.
Having meltdowns with your tutelage isn't helping him. Explain that his friends have tutors and he can them be his best self.

Would you not worry that if he is struggling with the test to get in then maybe he would struggle at the school?

I was thinking the same.
If it’s a struggle to pass the test then potentially will be a struggle at school too.
I know so many people who have spent hundreds on tutoring but that won’t help their children if they aren’t the type to get on well in a highly academic environment anyway.
The 11+ system is awful for kids.

We're in the middle of this too and can't wait for it to be over. We lived here pre kids so we didn't want to move again, solely for a secondary school TBH.

OP, it's very late in the day now and I can't imagine you'll make material improvement in the last few weeks. I would be talking to your DS to ask if he still wants to take it or not. Personally, given where he's at, I wouldn't be sweating him over lots of papers as (from your description) it sounds like he's less likely to pass.

Have you looked at Compare Schools website? Although the headline scores for our back up non selective school don't look great, actually the previous high SATs achievers is much better (where we think our son would fit). Might help put your mind at ease.

My daughter goes to grammar school and she is now in the sixth form. She loves it and has always said it was the best decision she made. Please don't force your son. Grammar school is not for everyone. Even if you are bright it still may not be for you. Children are working 2/3 years ahead normal comprehensive schools.
If you push him and he scrapes through he will struggle academically in that environment. His confidence will be rock bottom and that's another problem you will have to contend with.
I know as parents we believe we're doing the best but ultimately it is them that have to be there for several hours of the day.
Better to send him to a good school and he be happy and be in top set then be at a grammar school and constantly struggling.
Grammar schools are full of self motivated geeks and that's what makes the teaching so easy and there are no real behavioural problems.

Are you in Calderdale per chance. I went to a presentation at the leading state grammar school. The Head was boasting about how many children came from far and wide, I think one got the train from York. I was disgusted. They should still have to live in Calderdale area as far as I’m concerned

Grammar school is not for everyone. Even if you are bright it still may not be for you. Children are working 2/3 years ahead normal comprehensive schools.

Is this true though? Our local comp (average results, not in a grammar area, but near enough that lots of people apply to grammars out-of-county, so affected by their presence to some degree) has a whole class of children getting A stars in the core subjects. Another class getting at least As. By the same token, the grammars have whole classes of children getting 4s, 5s and 6s in their subjects. Respectable grades, for sure, but hardly indicative of some enclave of mini geniuses who couldn't possibly be educated alongside the general population. Given the way people carry on, I was surprised to learn that only 20 children at the nearest (highly prestigious) grammar achieved straight 7-9 grades last year, out of almost 200.

I don't doubt that there are more children working 2-3 years ahead of the curriculum at grammars than at run-of-the-mill comps, but it's certainly not all of them, or even the majority.