To think the anti-immigrations have BEEN "heard"?

[dropoutin]

I posted something like this on one of the riot threads but it ws locked soon after.

Is anyone else getting really bored of people justifying racism, terror, violence and destruction by insisting how important it is that those who imagine asylum seekers are responsible for the country's problem are "heard".

Little reminder: It's exactly that particular obsession that led to the Brexit referendum in 2016, and the most radical - and destructive - political change of recent times.

There were several years in which the country barely discussed anything else. Farage and Johnson got to tell you in great detail how the reason you're poor is because of the black family down the road. And you got the choice of believing them, or not. You even got to make Johnson PM so he could "get Brexit done" and "level up" your community.

You've been taken for a ride. Asylum seekers rriving irregularly (via small boats etc) make up less than 5% of total immigration, which is coming down after peaking in 2022 (partly due to the Ukraine war, and other factors). Neither Tories nor Labour are going to radically reduce immigration because anyone having to ACTUALLY run the country can see that doing so will exacerbate the demographic time-bomb, reduce economic activity and decimate the NHS. You're poor because of 14 years of Conservative economic policy, not because of anyone's skin colour or passport.

Meanwhile: How many of us get to have a national referendum tailored around our favourite policy hobbyhorse? When is my referendum on industrial relations? On housing and land ownership? On the House of Lords? When do I get to be "heard"? Being heard doesn't mean everyone has to agree with you, or that you get to go out and beat up brown people because things aren't working out the way you imagined they would.

It's not that you haven't been heard. It's just that you were wrong.

@Bumpitybumper source for that? Or is it just what Farage has told you?

We are strained because of 14 years of Tory neglect. Not because of immigration. Because the tories wanted to dismantle the NHS and sell it off to their mates in the USA.

I’d say so. Heard of the stop the boats campaign ? The issue is that it won’t work because limiting immigration isn’t the solution to the actual problem.

I would echo those who have mentioned the cost of even the small amount of illegal migration being a huge factor.

If I remember correctly, Rachel Reeves has suggested there is a £2bn black hole in the economy, to the point where OAPs are losing their winter fuel payments unless they are on Pension credit.

It doesn't end at the housing cost either, it's the use of the NHS, benefits, legal aid for solicitors to argue for permanent status etc.

About a year ago, I had a hospital appointment. I had waited 18 months for this so called "urgent" appointment and it had been cancelled once due to staffing issues.

I got to my appointment ten minutes early because it's polite to do so to allow time to book in etc. My appointment time was 3.15pm.

By 4pm I started to get a little concerned as there was just myself, another lady and a couple in the waiting room. The lady on her own sat next to me and asked what time my appointment was for as she was getting worried about the delay as she had something to attend after her appointment. Her appointment was supposed to have been for 2.45pm with the same consultant.

I politely asked on the desk to be told there was a delay as a patient needed an interpreter and they only had two at the hospital due to illness. I asked why the consultant couldn't just see other ladies while they waited to be told he couldn't.

By 4.30pm, I was starting to think I would have to go home as the clinic shut at 5pm.

A nurse than approached and asked myself and the lady next to me to speak to her in a side room. She told us as we were unaccompanied females the male consultant did not want to see us, did either of us have the option of calling our husbands to attend? I was baffled! I asked her if she was joking, said we had both waited way over our appointment time and this was a farce. After much discussion she agreed to ask a female consultant to see us instead.

As a result, my appointment was rushed, I was treated as out of order as apparently this consultant was meant to finish early and it was a total waste of time.

I ended up contacting PALs who said they had heard similar to me from other ladies about this clinic and others. They asked the lead consultant to call me. She did so and was just rude and flippant. When I said it was ridiculous to expect me to bring DH, and I'm quite able to speak up for myself, she accused me of being "moderately racist". I asked how so and she just said she wouldn't discuss it further.

So after an 18 month wait, and ages waiting at a hospital, 5 minutes in and out and I'm still just as bad off as I was. I went there to have a discussion on my options with an operation which would make my life a lot better but was told there was no funding.

Considering the cost of interpreters to the NHS alone is well into the millions of pounds (according to Google it was £43,095,493 between 2019 and 2020) and remember, they need them in schools, job centres, council offices etc, the costs rack up.

And at a time when Labour is suggesting the way out of a budget black hole is to give some old people the horrible choice of eating or heating people will suggest there are better cuts to be made.

We are facing difficult choices as a country and it will be interesting to see what Kier Starmer does in his first very big test of leading the country.

It's of course not the answer for thugs wanting an excuse to riot and steal stuff to create unrest. But I do believe a dialogue on where our collective money is spent and justification for it needs to happen. We don't have infinite resources.

I don't want to be "heard" I want immigration massively reduced like the majority of the country. Every country facing our pressures thinks the same (see Ireland where massive riots underplayed by the media, Germany, France) And not interested in lies from the Tories or explaining things to white middle class randoms on Mumsnet any more.

Explain why you'd like it reduced then. With facts and sources to back it up?

Nobody really has a real reason it's just "it costs too much" as do multiple other things, but immigration is always the target.

Also this is to do with skin colour. It’s just the easy way to find someone to blame when you can’t be bothered to do well for yourself in many cases. Who controls what the government do? Immigrants? I don’t think so. But these rioters and their fellow travellers would like a go without the bother of democracy.

Of course they've been heard. Those who are protesting with violence are now attempting to force through their agenda with coercion, at best. At worst they are indulging in violence because they enjoy it. The peaceful protesters have also been heard. There can be no one in the UK unaware there are some strong anti Immigration views amongst the population. When they claim to go 'unheard' they are confusing this with being heard but not getting their way.

Your wait will get worse as the population gets older and there are fewer young people available to treat you.

How would you solve that problem?

I haven't heard anyone who talks about immigration discuss that.

The population is getting older.
We need people to provide services, health care etc - basically to fund the care of older people and to help fund the economy.

I suppose we could just increase the retirement age for older people?

Did you even read that article? It cites cultural gender norms as one of the reason suggesting they are including women who don’t work due to more traditional values because they choose to be a SAHM.
I thought conservative values align with conservative family values?

It also says “While white British Muslims did not display a significantly different risk of unemployment and inactivity from white British Christians, Arab men of no religion were among those with the highest likelihood of unemployment/inactivity. Sweida-Metwally wrote this “might suggest that perceived Muslimness is more important for predicting religious disadvantage among men than actual attachment to the faith”.

He added: “This means that an understanding that Islamophobia is multidimensional, and relates to colour, religion, culture and country of origin, with any one dimension of difference being ‘enough’ for someone inclined to be prejudiced, is essential to any strategy seeking to attenuate these inequalities.”

The study found that when it came to men, those of black Caribbean ethnicity had the highest risk of unemployment.

So I don’t think this article says what you think it says…

The thing is, you can say "like the majority of the country" but it's pretty clear from the recent election results that the "majority of the country" chose to prioritise other things.

Increasing retirement age will have to happen anyway. There's no money.

I don't listen to Farage. This is exactly what I meant People like you are extremists. You can't accept other views or even hear them. The world is very binary to you. Accept all immigration without question OR you must be a right wing, Farage loving racist.

@Bumpitybumper I'm asking you for sources to the claims you're making. That's it. Nowhere have I labelled you as an extremist.

I’ll taking your “where the fuck are we putting them”? as a genuine question, that you would actually like to know the answer to.

Most people arriving by boats will go on to claim asylum (93%). Seeking asylum is a basic human right enshrined in international law. The UK cannot refuse to take asylum seekers. The UK takes a below average number of asylum applications, ranking only 19th among EU countries in 2022.

After arrival, Asylum seekers are dispersed around the UK for housing. I have some experience with young asylum seekers, some of whom arrive on boats. Social services houses groups of 15, 16, 17, 18-year-old unaccompanied asylum seeking children in group homes, with no live-in adult. They are then left largely to their own devices, apart from a social worker paying odd visits. They have to navigate a new country, education, cooking for themselves. They have to stay out of trouble, as even a small misdemeanour like getting in a fight will jeopardise their asylum claim. Would you like your 16 year old to live in those kinds of conditions? That is one of the places “where the fuck they’re being put”.

Once asylum seekers have their refugee status granted, they become tax payers. Same as you or me. If their claim is refused, they are sent back. Either way, they do not stay a “burden” for long. Even less time if the government would sort out the huge backlog on claims. The Tories fucked that up.

God, I wish people would focus half as much of their energy on solving the issues within their OWN communities - poor education, unemployment, bad behaviour, rioting, drink, drugs, lack of ambition in white British communities - as they do focusing on asylum seekers and immigrants.

What level would you like legal migration reduced to?

We have a shortage of certain professions and an ageing population - so which immigrants would you like to see here?

Would you let them bring their famiiies?

You suggested that I have listened to Farage. The implication is clear. There are countless sources, just use Google.

Interested on where you stand on brits moving to France and Spain and refusing to learn the language, living in little enclaves of fellow brits so they don't have to assimilate?

As I said I can't be arsed. Have done that before. Most of Mumsnet get their (highly selective) "news" from the BBC and Guardian and live in a bubble where Keir Starmer is wonderful and Farage is to blame for everything. Go on YouTube if you want to know what's going on, there are many citizen journalists who go to the protests and talk to both sides. I have tried to step away from politics on mn as just like being on the Guardian but use it for other things. Bloody hell I got sucked in again, can't believe I've wasted 20 minutes.

“Valid concerns about immigration” to me include things like what the cap is, rules around family members, things like citizenship tests, additional visa requirements to come including English Language skills etc.

It is not “send them back” or demanding “no Muslims”.
It’s the latter that has been ignored.
And rightly so.
Its an extremist minority view.

I agree with you OP. We've heard more than enough from this lot. They got their bloody brexit. Turns out it was a fucking stupid thing to do but they got it. Turns out the reason they've got no money and their lives are shit has nothing to do with foreigners after all. I don't need to hear another bloody word from any of these failed, angry losers.

I’d prefer policy that means a country doesn’t break down as migration pressures increase

Someone linked to an article in pp about riots possible and I’m surprised how much this isn’t a consideration

Riots are extremely costly plus disruptive, bad for the destabilised country all round. What’s the answer as numbers keep going up and there’s increasing anger? It’ll be worse than now

So both @Northernnature and @Bumpitybumper "have reasons" buth can't be bothered to explain them. It doesn't really seem like a legitimate and reasoned concern when you aren't able to back it up

You don't think that the rise in population has had any effect?
Tory policies were disastrous for everyone, but we do need conversations about what population levels we can sustain. We also need to look at what and where we build. Our Labour council has just lied to us and we are having industrial units built on what was historic woodland. Ten minutes away is a vast waste ground of old factories.
We aren't the inly country suffering from false / exaggerated information. There's SM presence trying to convince people in Africa that the aim is to depopulate Africa and wipe out black people. There massive anti family planning rhetoric.

Why does no one seem able to mention that the first riot of the year in this country was entirely Asian men in Leeds??

What do you mean "numbers are going up"

Are you talking about legal migration - where the numbers are falling - and which makes up the overwhelming number of people coming here?