To think the anti-immigrations have BEEN "heard"?

[dropoutin]

I posted something like this on one of the riot threads but it ws locked soon after.

Is anyone else getting really bored of people justifying racism, terror, violence and destruction by insisting how important it is that those who imagine asylum seekers are responsible for the country's problem are "heard".

Little reminder: It's exactly that particular obsession that led to the Brexit referendum in 2016, and the most radical - and destructive - political change of recent times.

There were several years in which the country barely discussed anything else. Farage and Johnson got to tell you in great detail how the reason you're poor is because of the black family down the road. And you got the choice of believing them, or not. You even got to make Johnson PM so he could "get Brexit done" and "level up" your community.

You've been taken for a ride. Asylum seekers rriving irregularly (via small boats etc) make up less than 5% of total immigration, which is coming down after peaking in 2022 (partly due to the Ukraine war, and other factors). Neither Tories nor Labour are going to radically reduce immigration because anyone having to ACTUALLY run the country can see that doing so will exacerbate the demographic time-bomb, reduce economic activity and decimate the NHS. You're poor because of 14 years of Conservative economic policy, not because of anyone's skin colour or passport.

Meanwhile: How many of us get to have a national referendum tailored around our favourite policy hobbyhorse? When is my referendum on industrial relations? On housing and land ownership? On the House of Lords? When do I get to be "heard"? Being heard doesn't mean everyone has to agree with you, or that you get to go out and beat up brown people because things aren't working out the way you imagined they would.

It's not that you haven't been heard. It's just that you were wrong.

One of the rioters who was up before a judge this week has 26 previous criminal convictions under his belt. What job is he worried about immigrants taking from him - burglary?

Have you seen that photo of two women emerging from a looted shop holding armfuls of crocs and toiletries? Presumably their thievery is a nuanced modern art piece on the frustrations of immigration policy.

Or maybe, these people don’t have ‘valid concerns’ that the wider public need to show sympathy for. Maybe they’re actually just opportunistic thugs and domestic terrorists, gleefully seizing the opportunity for a bit of exciting violence and some freebies at the expense of public safety.

So those of you saying ‘well I don’t approve of rioting of course but they do have legitimate concerns that we need to listen to’ - no. Stop using criminals as a springboard for your own racist and xenophobic views. You are the people who have created this environment in which white supremacists feel emboldened to commit acts of terror. Stop applying a legitimising veneer to acts of pure criminality.

I do think that people blaming it on immigration are wilfully ignorant as to the impact the tories have had in this country

I think we’ve reached the point now where these people can’t even remember why they are rioting. It’s only been a week and no one’s talking about killing 3 little girls anymore.

I don’t even think it’s about immigration any more. I just think that lots of people are angry, they are fed up and they’ve had enough.

I’m f*cking angry about;

There was no one for me to vote for. My vote didn’t reflect my values (LibDem tactical vote)

Labour/ Conservative both screw the country

Had a new government for 4 weeks and they’re already a pile of shite. What kind of people take my widowed 87 year old dad’s fuel allowance away

My town is in massive decline due to explosion of population, 000’s of houses but no more GP places, no kids dental, waited in A&E for 9 hours

Just basically seeing the massive decline of our country unfold in front of our eyes

The chipping away of women’s rights, our safety and how little by little it’s becoming acceptable to treat women as lesser humans

WRT immigration. I don’t have a problem with immigration. We need it. We don’t need people who rape children in gangs, or who refuse to integrate. I’m sure the peaceful immigrants would welcome us throwing them out so they don’t have to be put in the same bag.

Everyone is pissed off. When this happens, people turn on each other, this is what is happening now.

There are people rioting. There are people who think everything is rosy, no issues with immigration etc. Then there are people like me who are very angry about how our society is collapsing, but I’m not about to go out on the street about it. There are loads of people like me, and NO we are not being listened to, and in fact called ignorant and racist.

I

Everyone had the opportunity to be heard in July. Reform stood almost everywhere, so did several other parties.

The fuel allowance is not being "taken away" it is being means tested. As it always should have been.

This is the result of 14 years of the tories.

This is ridiculous! We all know democracy doesn't work like this.

Unless there is a referendum about this particular issue then we have no real idea what people think about immigration. I imagine many of the people rioting will have voted for one of the other parties (i.e. not Reform) as they agree with their other policies. Conversely a lot of Reform voters may well be pro immigration but like Reform's policies on taxation etc. It's a lot more complex than you suggest.

I think the problem has been that people like you seem desperate to make the immigration debate all about extremism and racism. This makes it a political hit potato and discourages moderate political parties from being able to sensibly discuss the obvious issues and challenges that come from immigration. If none of the major parties are willing to tackle immigration and yet you don't want to vote for a radical party then where does this leave you?

They have tried to create the chaos that the far right want. This is their game plan - divide decent people and lead a far right rhetoric . It's perfectly logical to debate immigration . This isn't it - this is on the edge of civil chaos which is what farage and Robinson want .

You know this, I know this.

Unfortunately the stupid, the lazy and the ignorant haven't got there yet.

The government wasted £316 million on the Rwanda scheme, fuelled by anti-immigration sentiment. They wasted £1.4 billion on PPE. All of this could have gone to the NHS budget. Stop making excuses and scapegoating. You are the problem.

Obesity costs the NHS £6.5 billion per year. Smokers cost the NHS £2.5 billion. No one is rioting about that (rightly…). But when it comes to housing immigrants, it’s “hearing those figures makes things difficult for me if I'm honest”…… Sounds like racism if I am honest.

No it was never built on 'mass immigration'.

This country was built by a long line of working class apeople who worked in the factories, farmed the fields, fought in the wars and built the civilised society we used to have,

And don't you dare say we are all immigrants here. Many of us can trace our families back over centuries.

If you look at immigration over the last centuries there were nowhere near the numbers who have arrived over the last 20 years.

The country is falling apart because too many people here are not doing their 'bit' and too many unskilled and unwanted immigrants have arrived and labour is no better at doing something about it even if they say they are going to.

@Forestgreen19 you make an excellent point. Obesity is so expensive yet the NHS has chosen a 12 week crash diet as opposed to supporting people with drugs that actually help - where's the riots about that? £6m on immigrants is apparently unacceptable but £6b on preventable diseases is totally fine!

Thank you, it's disgusting how they ignore what the working class has done for this country.

Polls say 64% think immigration has been too high , so that is the mainstream view. Rachel Reeves predicted these riots 7 years ago in the Independent. I suppose she's far right too?
dailysceptic.org/2024/08/04/riots-could-sweep-streets-of-britain-if-immigration-not-curbed-rachel-reeves/

They may well think that but the fact of the matter is services such as the NHS thrive on immigration. There's 100k vacancies in the NHS. I don't see any of the rioters going for those jobs, do you?

I don't understand how these points are related at all.

Yes, like most Western countries, the UK has a very expensive problem with obesity. Why on earth does this mean that people should be happy with immigration because it costs less? Frankly the immigrants could easily be or become obese themselves. What then? They are not even mutually exclusive issues

@ruby1957 The country is falling apart because too many people here are not doing their 'bit' and too many unskilled and unwanted immigrants have arrived and labour is no better at doing something about it even if they say they are going to.

This is the exact kind of ignorant nonsense that fuels these things.
The country is falling apart because too many people aren’t doing their bit?
Well given the unemployment in British born people is 26% compared to 20% non EU migrants and 15% EU migrants I’m not sure how your tying “not doing their bit” to immigration.

@Bumpitybumper the point is people are claiming its immigration putting such pressure on our public services when it isn't.

So? You don't have concerns about immigration? Most sensible people do. Because it's a financial budgeting problem and a big issue, generally. But most of us aren't extremist.

Maybe we should start training more doctors then (loads of well qualified young people of all races are denied the chance to go to medical school and nurses have to pay for their own training as bursaries were cut how ridiculous was that). And yes I would be prepared to pay for it instead of all the other crap the govt wastes money on. Think as well more immigrants are users of the NHS (putting even more pressure on) than workers.

Polls do quite often say that immigration is "too high" but research has also shown that, when you ask people about each specific category of immigrant (e.g. students, NHS staff, carers, skilled workers, refugees etc) people don't usually think that immigration from those categories should be reduced.

So there is a general sense that it is "too high" overall but no consensus at all on how it should be reduced.

But the immigrants are adding to an already overwhelmed system. The fact that we have issues with obesity etc means that we are in a worse position to shoulder more burdens. It doesn't mean that because the system is already overwhelmed then the extra burden of immigration doesn't matter. That's my point!

I hate the way that people pretend all immigrants are going to work in the NHS. Realistically the vast majority will place an additional burden on the system.

Highest unemployment is among Muslims. What's your point? www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/news/2022/jul/17/muslims-high-unemployment-rates-not-due-to-cultural-and-religious-practices

No. They scare or intimidate Filipino nurses going to work in the NHS.

I too am fed up, there has been 14 years of centre right government, a referendum, constant discussion of a problem but no solution, culminating in the Rwanda pantomime for the hard of thinking, and now we have Farage elected. And we have record immigration.

Labour have been in power a month. The country had an election. Actually most of the country is now very very fed up of people who say immigrants are the problem. Because given these riots, and the hatred being spread online, it looks more like the opposite. Today members of my family will be policing the streets to keep the country safe. Who from? Is it migrants? Like hell it is.

The thing is it’s posts like yours that are half the problem - you’re making it clear to people you don’t give a shit about immigration, refugees or the exceptional poverty and restlessness this country is facing, you want to brand them all racists so that you don’t need to listen to their concerns.

Some people have real issues with that and there’s never been an adequate answer nor solution. The only thing we can do is listen to them and make sure they feel heard because that’s the only thing that will stop it.

I’m absolutely not saying I agree with what they’re doing or the way they’re going about things, I don’t think writing them off as racists is the solution either though.

These rioters are just thugs and criminals who need locking up.
To write off anyone who has legitimate concerns with illegal immigration as racist etc is the reason we have people like Farage in any sort of powerful position.
Of course we need legal immigration and to help refugees who are fleeing danger but to belittle people who don't want people coming here illegally with no information on who they are or where they are from is ridiculous.
Are you happy that criminal gangs are making thousands from people risking their lives to make a boat trip here?