To think the anti-immigrations have BEEN "heard"?

[dropoutin]

I posted something like this on one of the riot threads but it ws locked soon after.

Is anyone else getting really bored of people justifying racism, terror, violence and destruction by insisting how important it is that those who imagine asylum seekers are responsible for the country's problem are "heard".

Little reminder: It's exactly that particular obsession that led to the Brexit referendum in 2016, and the most radical - and destructive - political change of recent times.

There were several years in which the country barely discussed anything else. Farage and Johnson got to tell you in great detail how the reason you're poor is because of the black family down the road. And you got the choice of believing them, or not. You even got to make Johnson PM so he could "get Brexit done" and "level up" your community.

You've been taken for a ride. Asylum seekers rriving irregularly (via small boats etc) make up less than 5% of total immigration, which is coming down after peaking in 2022 (partly due to the Ukraine war, and other factors). Neither Tories nor Labour are going to radically reduce immigration because anyone having to ACTUALLY run the country can see that doing so will exacerbate the demographic time-bomb, reduce economic activity and decimate the NHS. You're poor because of 14 years of Conservative economic policy, not because of anyone's skin colour or passport.

Meanwhile: How many of us get to have a national referendum tailored around our favourite policy hobbyhorse? When is my referendum on industrial relations? On housing and land ownership? On the House of Lords? When do I get to be "heard"? Being heard doesn't mean everyone has to agree with you, or that you get to go out and beat up brown people because things aren't working out the way you imagined they would.

It's not that you haven't been heard. It's just that you were wrong.

@Sitdownrosa yes the police have been called on all occasions, the one in court recently got a slap on the wrist, the ones reported for taking pictures of kids in the park nothing was done about this. This is not just hearsay or rumours I work with the girls and it their kids and friends kids who have had this happen to. We are very rural with little police presence which doesn’t help

It's weird how so many people feel english culture must be respected and yet so few can define what it means.

If our culture is about peace, respect, the law being applied fairly, treating women and lgbtq people equally to straight men ... That doesn't look like the uk i know, that's why I'm confused. There's still rampant homophobia everywhere, and women are still discriminated against everywhere we turn. Just because other cultures are worse, doesn't mean that it's an accurate description of our culture either. It might be what you want to believe, but that doesn't mean it's true.

Anyway, I'm not the one who demands that immigrants "respect our culture".

Two people then. One of who didn't commit a crime.

How many white men committed crimes against women and girls in that time period?

@Sitdownrosa They are aspirational values, and pretty good ones.

If those are the values people mean when they say they want immigrants to 'respect our culture', then that's something I agree with.

What I about them is that they are liberal, humanist values. One challenge of immigration (which I strongly support) is that immigration of large numbers of people who don't share those values would very plausibly risk undermining them. That's not a trivial thing to be concerned about. It's also not easy to resolve without infringing other important values, like judging people as individuals and not imposing belief tests. The liberal's paradox.

But I do find it odd how hard some people seem to find it to believe that people would genuinely want to protect those values, and assume it must be a smokescreen for some darker motive. Sometimes, wanting to preserve liberal values is just about wanting to preserve liberal values.

I agree.

A culture that many people benefit from and enjoy?

Including many immigrants who are happily settled and integrated in the UK. I‘m an immigrant myself, and so are several of my friends.
I don’t understand the self-flagellating attitude of some Brits and don’t think it helps anyone.

Albanian's ARE white

There almost certainly are other cultures here who carry prejudices and don’t respect our laws and customs. When Brits go to somewhere like Saudi Arabia, we respect them, their laws and customs. We have been incredibly welcoming here and I’m proud that we have. However it’s also fair to say that if you don’t like an aspect of a country you have chosen to live in, you can either depart or work out a way to live happily within the rules and culture. Most people who have come here have done the latter and we know they have. Few agitate and want something else.

Many Albanians have been repatriated I believe.

Ok, how many white British men then?

When Brits go to somewhere like Saudi Arabia, we respect them, their laws and customs.

lol you mean how people cover up and don’t drink alcohol when they go to Dubai? Sure

Utter rubbish. Racist bile has been going on in this country for centuries. See below. Thickos drank the Kool Aid wrt Brexit.

On the eve of the customary May Day festivities in 1517, after months of growing tensions, a huge crowd of Londoners assembled at St Paul’s churchyard and marched through the streets of the city, attacking the homes and workshops of immigrants. Their hostility was directed at many different sorts of foreigners: wealthy merchants as well as ordinary craftsmen, whether French, Italian or Flemish. What they had in common was their apparent privilege – each of these threatening ‘aliens’ was thought to enjoy the protection or favour of Henry VIII and his government.

She was speaking about Saudi not Dubai. If u break the rules in Saudi there is harsh punishment

I think many people who are concerned about the rate of immigration (too fast for infrastructure to have a hope of keeping up) felt that Reform went too far the other way.

Indeed, we already have men of many shades committing these offences. We don't need to import more offenders from other countries, we have more than enough of our own.

Labour got 34% of the vote that bothered to turn up. Reform got 14%. That's not negligible ..only a 20% difference.

Doesn't matter that's how our system works. Feck me I had 14 years of tories never voted them and they didn't get much of vote for that but I had to accept thats democracy in our country. What we have seen since Labour has got innpower the far right systematically trying to undermine labour starner that's what all these riots are about. Farage wants to control the narrative he needs more seats abd of this happens next time fair does. We don't do coups in the UK

I'm not quibbling with the system. I'm pointing out the vote share and the relatively small difference. Its interesting if nothing else if you think about the next election. (I don't support either of those parties btw)

I actually think if you think about it if you look into America and across Europe. Yes, there is right now a momentum rise of the far, right? However, it is their last guard that they have. I honestly believe there is much more people that do not agree with this bigoted approach on life the way that they are very anti. LGBT They are anti-women anti. Anything that goes against what they want. An anti-immigration this stunts is not gonna last long and they know it. This is their last fight, which is why we are seeing such a rise across Europe and America. But I don't know if Trump is going to win this time. So I think things could change

I don't know if there is a rise of the "far right". There are right wing government's across Europe though.

I think 20% is a very big difference actually, especially when the vote is spread between several other parties as well.
Interestingly, according to the YouGov poll, only 25% of Reform voters supported the recent far right protests. This is (surprisingly lower) than the UK as a whole - 34% of the population apparently supported the protests (depressingly) but not the violence.

Yes that sounds right. I can't imagine many people support rioting as a method of deciding policy!

Well we will see what happens to that 14%. It will depend on Starmers actions in the next 5 years.

I think you have mixed up the figures.

34% of people in the YouGov poll support the wider 'protests', but only 7% support the riots (still quite high IMO).

Amongst Reform voters, 81% support the wider 'protests' and 21% support the riots.

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/50257-the-public-reaction-to-the-2024-riots

What is most is that 9% of Conservative voters (the party of law and order!!!!) said they supported the riots.

It also depends on events outside the control of any government and whether Reform can a) manage not to fall out and b) demonstrate any competency.

The UK parliament is a tough environment for smaller parties, they have to actually work to retain seats. Very different to EU list system.

There has been a rise of parties further to the right in comparison to previous decades. This is not a matter for debate, election results are a matter of public record.

Yes agreed. They will presumably work on the Lib Dem localised system who ended up with only 12% of the 59% of the electorate who bothered to vote but 72 seats.
Reform need to clean themselves up though if they can. They can't just be a party for the disaffected and there are some troubling types hanging around in it.

Yes agreed. Europe has to date been centre left. That's obviously changing rapidly. It's just the use of "far" right that I get stuck on as I don't want it to dilute the word ..we have the actual far right on our streets. As I've mentioned the Conservatives are not far right or fascist as often they have been described. It's hyperbolic and not helpful use of language.