To ask if you think the Olympic boxers are male?

[ArabellaScott]

The finals for both boxers are tonight and tomorrow.

I'm curious to hear whether people think they are females with a DSD, or males with a DSD.

YABU - they're female
YANBU - they're male

"Simply they lack enough female hormones to reproduce"

eeerrrr.... no. If they have never had the body formed around producing large gametes at all they are not 'female'. It doesn't matter if the body produces some estrogen which all bodies do. It comes down to whether a body was formed around producing large gametes. That requires ovaries. And if the tests have shown enough information that a body can be categorised as having been formed around ova production, that means a body is female.

Males with testes, descended or not and regardless of working status, have a body formed around producing small gametes.

Your daughter seems to have pulled out all the misinformation we have already covered on this and other threads. What you have written is unfortunately, pretty much all misinformation in one go, with some logical fallacy included there as well.

@JJathome if your daughter believes there are male people, female people and people who are both/neither/whatever why does she feel that the categories should be male and female/other rather than male/other and female?
In a case where someone is "more that female" but "less than male" they pose a danger to women so why should women suck up that risk?(often without being made fully aware that that is the risk they are being made to take) so the potential harm is born by people who definitely belong in the category.
If the "more than female" but " less than male" enters the male category they are the ones who bare the risk and therefore do so knowingly and willingly (assuming you believe that someone with a male DSD is weaker/slower/ "less than" males identified at birth.)
Why should unknowing, unwilling women be expected to be the ones who suffer?

@Helleofabore

And do you think that male athletes with pubertal advantage should be competing in female boxing?
No.

And do you think that if those male athletes know they are male and have advantage that they should ultimately bear the responsibility for not putting female athletes in increased risk?
Yes.*
*
Because no one can trust the IOC to exclude them because it is against their current policy. You don’t trust the IBA testing protocol. So knowing the story of Caster Semenya, do you trust these athletes to do the right thing?
Not necessarily. *
*
Or is it more that you also don’t believe that male athletes who have gone through male puberty have that advantage and you don’t trust the studies that have been done either?
I don't think that.

Intersex is a grey area on this, Simply science says most people with a y are men and then there is intersex.

What science? You need to check your sources, because no accurate, verifiable, scientific source would use the term 'intersex'. There is no such thing as intersex. All humans are either female or male. There is nothing by in-between male and female. No spectrum, no 'inter'. There are Differences in Sexual Development, DSDs. About 1-2 people in 10,000 are female with DSD or male with DSD. Some of these DSDs (the one that Caster Semenya has, which these boxers are also thought to have) result in a newborn who appears to be female, but then has a male puberty because their internal tests secrete testosterone which their body responds to. This would make them a poor male boxer, rather than a good female boxer.

To be fair, the posters daughter does not need to become an expert in the complex area of DSDs.

However we do need those who are experts in the area to correct misinformation in the press. And we need to have confidence in orgs like IOC that they are taking their responsibilities seriously and overseeing a robust system of proper testing.

"science makes exceptions for intersex, basically she’s biologically intersex, like millions of others, a very difficult and grey area".

I don't believe many people on this thread were not understanding that these two (remember there are two athletes under discussion here ) athletes were not most likely to have differences in sex development.

And we have heard directly from posters who have differences in sex development who have asked people to stop using 'intersex'. They have found it is inaccurate, and offensive in the use and meaning. They are not 'between' sexes, they are either male or female. Every person in the world is either male or female based on the categorisation, through testing, of their body being either formed around the production of large or small gametes. As I said the only important body part to discuss is ovary or testes.

Those supporting the exclusion of these male athletes were doing so based on two parts of the IBA's statement.

XY chromosomes
competitive advantage coming from male puberty

There was no poster supporting the exclusion of these athletes on this thread that said anything about them not being males with DSDs that virilised their bodies that I could find going back.

@MessinaBloom

I don't think this is the case at all.

I agree (and have stated elsewhere) that this is not a trans case, but I would argue that a significant number of posters who are sympathetic to Khelif are sympathetic because of their (intractable) views on Trans issues (insistence on “self-identification”, “transwomen are women”, and so on).

Certainly, if proved to be male, Khelif should not be competing in women's boxing. No male should. It doesn't matter if they've "lived as women".

There have been many posters across many threads who do not accept that if these boxers are proved to be male, they should be disqualified - all their sympathy seems to lie with the ‘male’ boxers simply because they have “lived as women” - but that fact (influenced by trans ideology) is irrelevant in this context.

The argument pro-Khelif posters are making in that context is Khelif was born a female, grew up female and is female.

Khelif was born a female. This is not true - Kehlif was (likely) wrongly observed as female at birth.

Khelif grew up as a female. I don’t know the details in Khelif’s case, but it’s likely that someone wrongly identified as ‘female’ at birth will be raised as female. I have sympathy for those in that situation and if, even after going through male puberty, they decide to live as females, then I can understand and respect that decision. What I can’t respect is that person then seeking to capitalise on their situation by boxing in the women’s category with unfair advantage.

Khelif is female. Again, this is not true (if the DSD assumption is correct), because the essential biology is male.

I would stand by my original statement that many pro-Khelif posters are influenced by an insidious trans ideology that utilises uncompromising and language de-stabilising terms such as “born a female”, “raised as female”, and (worst of all) “is female".

Being wrongly identified as female does not make you female; growing up as a female does not make you female, but some posters seem to want us to accept that it somehow does. And this stems from the false premise (the lie) that "transwomen are women".

Ok.

Thanks for clarifying.

I totally agree.

We should not be the ones who are correcting the misinformation.

This is from Carole Hooven (hoovlet on Twitter) and I think OP has posted it too, I think others have posted it but it seems that it would be useful again.

It touches on the hormone AMH which is the hormone that stops the production of the uterus and fallopian tubes. It is produced in the testes of male people. And as such there are no ovaries, because the body developed testes instead.

There is are male conditions where this hormone is not produced. In Persistent Müllerian Duct Syndrome, male people with this still develop as ‘typical male’ developmentally.

She has numerous tweets about this issue this week. Good stuff.

https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819449064590582073?s=46&t=HTxp6zC_d4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

The relevant parts of the tweet is below:

Males with 5-ARD do not have a uterus or other female internal structures, but they do have what looks like a vagina, so are often sexed as females. However they are males with normal testes, which produce typical male hormones. Those hormones, among other things, prevent the development of female internal reproductive structures (like the uterus and cervix).

In embryonic development, we all start out with two sets of primordial duct systems, one set that will develop into the male internal reproductive stuff (the Wolffian ducts, which become the epididymis, vas deferens and seminal vesicles), and another that develops into the female internal stuff (the Müllerian ducts, which become the upper part of the vagina, cervix, uterus and fallopian tubes, pic at the end).

In males, fetal testes don't only produce testosterone! They also make Anti-Mullerian Hormone (AMH), which is crucial for getting rid of the Mullerian ducts, and thus, ensuring that the eventual uterus, etc. don't develop. If there's no testes and no AMH, that female internal stuff will develop.

Males need high levels of T for male-typical development of all the male reproductive structures. Without T production and action, the external (penis and scrotum) and internal (described above) genitalia won't develop. But as I wrote in my monster tweet yesterday, T alone isn't enough for development of the penis and scrotum (and prostate): for that, T must be converted into DHT (a more potent androgen, production pathway below), and people with 5-ARD don't make the necessary enzyme to carry out that conversion. So they end up with what appears to be a vagina.

FYI, some males inherit a genetic mutation that means they can't produce AMH. They are typical males, but have a nonfunctional uterus and fallopian tubes inside their abdomen. The condition often not discovered until adulthood (it's called Persistent Müllerian Duct Syndrome). AMH is an important hormone for males, but hardly anyone even knows it exists.

Also, the testes generally don't descend into the scrotum before birth (as usual) without DHT, but they often do at puberty when testosterone levels reach high concentrations. So males with 5-ARD may be "sexed" as female, due to the female-appearing external genitalia.

But brain and the rest of the body are typically male. Most people with the condition will "transition" to living as a male once they realize they are male, and this often happens at puberty, when the testes descend and the body develops in a typically masculine way.

Here is another thread by Carole Hooven, (hoovlet on twitter) this one is a cracker (also I believe referred to on this thread, it certainly has been posted on others about the topic)

Thread starts here:

First: People living with DSDs should be treated with compassion and understanding, and receive any heath care they need. These can be challenging conditions for individuals and their families. But when male athletes have DSDs that give them an advantage over females, and they compete in the female category, this raises concerns about safety and fairness, and forces discussion of the relevant physical traits.

Athletes with XY DSDs who have testes (usually internal), XY sex chromosomes, male-typical levels of testosterone, and functional androgen receptors are often described as females with "hyperandrogenism," i.e., abnormally high levels of testosterone. They experience physical benefits of this high testosterone during puberty, which translate into athletic advantages over females. The issue for sports is that athletes with the XY DSD 5-alpha reductase deficiency (5-ARD), may be socialized as female, may be legally female, and may live and identify as female; but they are male.

These individuals are usually born with female-appearing genitalia, which can lead to being sexed as female. Here's why. 5-ARD is caused by a mutation in the gene that codes for the enzyme 5-alpha reductase, which converts testosterone into a more potent androgen, DHT. This androgen interacts with the androgen receptor, like testosterone, and is necessary for the typical development of male external genitalia (penis and scrotum) and the prostate. Without DHT, female-typical external genitalia develop. At the end of this monster post is a graphic of the relevant steroid production pathway, from my book T: The story of Testosterone.

DHT is also responsible for male-pattern baldness and dark, coarse facial hair, which is why people with the condition have smooth skin that can give a feminine appearance.

The “decision makers” are aware that athletes with 5-ARD are male, and that they experience the benefits of male puberty. The requirement to reduce their testosterone to typical female levels isn’t discriminatory, since these are males who are asking to compete in the female category. But more significantly, all the relevant scientific evidence shows that reducing male T in adulthood does not undo the physical benefits of male puberty.

Here's more detail about T, DHT, and male advantage in strength and speed.

I've been asked if men with the DSD 5-ARD (in which ppl cannot convert testosterone into the more potent androgen DHT) experience the typical benefits of male puberty, that would give them an advantage in strength and speed relative to women. This is relevant to questions about whether male athletes with 5-ARD should be allowed to compete in the female category. This is an excellent question, because it could be the case that DHT is necessary for the development and maintenance of male-typical muscle, lean body mass and strength. If that were the case, then people with 5-ARD might not have a typical male advantage, because the lack of DHT would perhaps lead to a more feminine pattern of fat, lean body mass and strength. I've wondered about this myself and have looked into the evidence.

Perhaps the top researcher in this area, Shalendar Bhasin, who is scrupulous in his methods, has examined this very question. The answer appears to be: no, testosterone does not need to be converted to DHT to exert its typical anabolic effects. These findings are reported in his 2012 study, "Effect of Testosterone Supplementation With and Without a Dual 5α-Reductase Inhibitor on Fat-Free Mass in Men With Suppressed Testosterone Production, A Randomized Controlled Trial." (It is linked to below—and since it's paywalled, I've included the graphs that show comparisons between the placebo and DHT— inhibited conditions, with no difference on the various outcomes.)

For more detail, the investigators wanted to examine the effects of suppressing DHT on muscle mass, strength, and sexual function. This important because one of the treatments for benign prostatic hyperplasia and male-pattern baldness is to suppress DHT, but clinicians have been concerned about effects on other outcomes that affect health and quality of life. Participants (healthy men, 18 to 50, with normal T levels) had their T blocked, and were given graded doses of T, along with either placebo or a drug that blocked the conversion of T to DHT. So both groups had T, but only one, the placebo group, also had DHT. After 20 weeks of treatment, changes in lean body mass, muscle, and strength were assessed. There were no significant difference between the placebo and DHT-blocked groups in these outcomes.

For LOTS more detail, here's the relevant text from the results. Please don't ask me questions about the study. Just look at the abstract and results which you can find by Googling. The main point is that while there are predicted effects of the different doses of T received, there were no differences in the outcomes according to whether they had DHT blocked (with dutasteride) or not (placebo). "Fat-Free Mass Fat-free mass and lean body mass increased in a dose-dependent manner in the placebo and dutasteride [THIS IS THE DRUG THAT BLOCKS CONVERSION OF T TO DHT] groups (Figure 2).

The changes in fat-free mass were related to testosterone dose and changes in testosterone concentrations in the placebo and dutasteride groups but did not differ between groups; the dose-adjusted mean difference (placebo minus dutasteride) in fat-free mass was 0.50 kg (95% CI, −0.22 to 1.22 kg; P = .18). There was no significant interaction between testosterone dose and randomization to dutasteride or placebo, indicating a lack of evidence that the relationship of testosterone dose to change in fat-free mass differed between the dutasteride and placebo groups.

The model-based smoothed regression lines, obtained by generalized additive models, describing the relationship between changes in testosterone concentrations and changes in fat-free mass and lean body mass were similar in the placebo and dutasteride groups. Changes in fat mass were negatively related to testosterone dose and concentrations, but the relationship between change in fat mass and dose did not differ significantly between the placebo and dutasteride groups (P = .41; Figure 2)."

"Muscle strength Leg-press and chest-press strength increased dependently by dose in the placebo and dutasteride groups. Increases in leg-press and chest-press strength were greater with larger doses and higher concentrations of testosterone. These relationships did not differ between the placebo and dutasteride groups (Figure 2)."

Really interesting commentary from the authors on the role of DHT in adult men: "Why then did the steroid 5α-reductase system evolve for androgens? Forty-six XY males with steroid 5α-reductase deficiency exhibited ambiguous or female external genitalia at birth and poor prostate development, but underwent normal muscle and bone development during pubertal transition. The phenotype of these patients suggests that steroid 5α-reductase plays an essential role in the development of prostate and phallus by providing local amplification of an androgenic signal without systemic hyperandrogenemia during critical periods of sexual differentiation, illustrating nature's extraordinary ingenuity in creating mechanisms for tissue-selective amplification during development.

We speculate that in adult men, in whom this tissue-specific amplification is not essential because the circulating testosterone concentrations are substantially higher than those in the fetus, testosterone and DHT can interchangeably subserve many androgenic functions. When circulating testosterone concentrations are low, intraprostatic DHT formation may become important in maintaining prostate growth, thus buffering the effects of decreasing testosterone levels, which has been suggested by Marks et al.

Our data are consistent with studies that have reported no effects of 5α-reductase inhibitors on muscle or bone mass. Inferences from these trials are limited by the fact that administration of 5α-reductase inhibitors increases testosterone levels, rendering it difficult to ascribe the outcomes to differences in DHT levels alone. In our trial, inhibition of endogenous testosterone by administration of a gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist eliminated this problem. Additionally, the high-dose dutasteride regimen effectively inhibited both steroid 5α-reductase isoenzymes."

https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819041282594873759
and the charts

https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819046454922518835

Clear use of male throughout.

Google Guevedoces.

Is the outward presentation more female ? They both look like males. They are males. As unfortunate as the disorder they were born with is and mistakenly bought up as girls it would have been clear from puberty that they were boys.
I don't understand the navel gazing and debate on any of this. To me it's as clear as can be, and it's cheating.

Just a quick simplification of male advantage, for those who think being brought up female should make a difference.

160% more powerful punch. That’s three for the price of two, in supermarket language. Given the choice of three chocolate bars for the price of two I very often cave because I’m fond of chocolate and fond of a bargain.
Three for the price of two is a big bargain.

Now add in the relative vulnerability of women boxers- the musculature at the neck seems to be different, their heads aren’t held on as securely, basically. Think of those American footballers whose heads look small in comparison with their neck. Women don’t seem to build that area the same way.
The skull is weaker. There are other physiological differences in women’s heads.

Combine women being physically less resilient with men getting three for the price of two and it’s massively dangerous.

But that’s not right, firstly khalif has breasts, you don’t know about her genitalia , but likely female. You can’t just decide they are men, and for me I don’t think they look like men, I also don’t think they look like women, for me they are androgynous. When khalif was young she absolutely looked like a little girl. Building muscle hasn’t helped her feminine appearance.

I have not seen any breast development in any photo. Are my eyes deceiving me somehow?

but it also doesn’t matter. Male people can develop breast tissue from numerous medical conditions. It is not an indication that they are female though. Still male.

And it doesn’t matter whether the ‘child’ looked like a girl. I was constantly mistaken for a boy until I hit puberty. It is entirely irrelevant.

But that’s not right, firstly khalif has breasts, you don’t know about her genitalia , but likely female.

Khelif does not have breasts, no.

And as XY their genitalia would almost without question be male. There is a condition called Swyer syndrome which would be an extremely rare exception to this, but no way does Khelif has this as these individuals have very low testosterone and this is clearly not the case.

Posting nonsense isn't helping.

That photo could be of literally anyone.

Not that it particularly matters. Males with 5ARD can be mistaken for females as children. Then puberty kicks in and the DSD becomes clear.

They may have a malformed penis though.

But the main thing would be where the urethra is positioned. Hence those males with urethra opening not at the tip of the penis sometimes gets dragged into the discussion.

But that’s not right, firstly khalif has breasts, you don’t know about her genitalia , but likely female.

Sigh.

https://x.com/ClownWorld/status/1819362202127679740/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1819362202127679740&currentTweetUser=ClownWorldd_

No breasts to be seen here and they seem to be rearranging male genitalia.

That’s such a masculine thing. Mum’s train it out of them in toddlerhood, then some of them seem to reacquire the habit as older teens.

It always puts me in mind of my impulse to pull up the sagging trousers of young men.

Obviously I resist but my inner mum is greatly engaged.

For some of the misinformation on this thread that has been refuted over and over again I need a label 'educated by tiktok' that I can apply.

Anyone got design skills?

Thanks for this, I had heard of ‘Testes at twelve’ but not this word. An interesting article about Guevedoces and 5-ARD from the BBC and Michael Moseley here:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34290981

No reference to sport or Caster Semenya in the article. The fact that many of the children with 5-ARD feel like boys and often choose to live as boys and men from puberty or before, despite their upbringing, is also very interesting.

Edited to add, on googling “Guevedoces” means penis at 12.

.

But that’s not right, firstly khalif has breasts, you don’t know about her genitalia , but likely female.

I do not think either of the boxers show typical body shape changes following a female puberty:

Female, oestrogen driven, puberty: Widening of the hips, breast growth, fat laid down on hips and thighs.
Male, testosterone driven, puberty: Widening of chest and shoulders, increase in muscle mass.

Sporty women can increase their muscle and women with low body fat will have smaller breasts but it is very difficult for women to get their body fat as low as men’s and their muscles as big without abnormally ( for an XX woman) high testosterone.

I think the photo used in this image brings this to light.

Warning: the thumbnail here includes male violence

https://x.com/JournalismSEEN/status/1821310132111995253