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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Are people on Mumsnet secretly racist or what?

231 replies

2024wtf · 05/08/2024 23:29

So many posters not being called out. They say blatantly racist things and back it up with "You can't keep shutting us down by calling us racist". It's because you're a racist assh*le.

Comments aren't even being deleted. Last month, you called YOURSELF a Karen you'll have pages and pages of people telling you off.

OP posts:
Quirkyme · 06/08/2024 09:19

LizzieSiddal · 06/08/2024 07:49

I live in a village about an hour from London, I came here to live from London and have been so shocked at how openly racist people are here. It’s appalling. We’re friends with very few people here because we prefer not to socialise with people who talk about others so disparagingly. Even when I tell them my sister is married a person of colour and they are talking about him and my two nieces, they don’t even look embarrassed. They are Brexit voting, Boris Johnson loving racists and it stinks.

Not sure why you think telling them that your sister is married to a POC is going to make them embarrassed or do anything at all.

Gotta stop trying to change those folks, they do not care.

Zimunya · 06/08/2024 09:32

2024wtf · 05/08/2024 23:40

I think I mean secret like they vote Labour are middle-class but closeted racist. Deep down they resent immigrants and agree with the riots but on the outside in real life, they act disapproving of racism. They drop the mask on Mumsnet.

I think resenting immigrants and being racist are two very separate things. Until Brexit the majority of immigrants to the UK were from Europe, and mostly white. Yet the UK voted for Brexit, despite this.

DH is a legal (it cost us a fortune, what with the visa fees and the NHS surcharge etc) immigrant here. He works, pays taxes, and is not allowed to claim public funds (correctly so). So he doesn't cost the UK taxpayer anything. I would imagine that even the most avid far right rioter would not take umbrage with him. Yet we have liberal friends who live in an area that has a large asylum seeker / immigrant population. She doesn't want to - it doesn't sit well with her ethics and beliefs - but she wants to move. She absolutely loves that asylum seekers have a safe haven in the UK, but absolutely hates that her daughter cannot walk safely in certain areas of her own home town without being harrassed. Is that racist? I don't think so.

Edited to add - you can be against uncontrolled immigration without being a far right racist rioter.

VividQuoter · 06/08/2024 09:39

Define a racist according to you, poster.

RedToothBrush · 06/08/2024 09:39

hairbearbunches · 06/08/2024 09:14

@RedToothBrush blistering comment. You should be involved in social policy.

if the white middle classes, who were calling working class Brexit voters from a pig to a dog (and still are) had voiced the same bile about any other group, a good many of them would have been reported for hate speech.

The last thread I contributed to on this subject was fascinating in terms of comments about Northern England.

Racism fits into wider social issues and conditions. Racism thrives at times of economic hardship. It's not a coincidence that the rise of fascism came during the depression of the 1930s. It's also why there were many sympathisers in the UK and US. The far right feeds on it whilst making promises of food and jobs.

Riots occur when levels of unemployment hit a critical level. They don't happen at times of relative social happiness and economic boom. They are the result of hopelessness.

We can talk about racism, but a failure to recognise how it fits into the bigger picture means you cant tackle it.

I've had a strange life despite growing up in an affluent area. It was regarded at the 'poor' bit and looked down on, whilst simultaneously being regarded by other areas as part of the snobby area. So I was neither one nor the other and having to constantly navigate this cross over. I'm sure that's a feeling that others have in various different ways. I'm northern but middle class. Again in terms of identity and communication with others that's awkward in a number of ways. DH and I are firmly Xiennals at the cross over of the generations. DH is also an escapee from Stoke. Spend some time in Stoke and you start to understand how values are different and people are lovely but also it's almost in a time warp too and it's exceptionally deprived. You know why people want to leave. Most people just will bypass it on the M6 and make disparaging comments about it being a hell hole. Understanding the history of the area and you understand the people better. There's an overlooking of the decline of mining towns and fishing towns which is almost erased from the public consciousness as being a huge part of our current political, economic and social issues.

Social media is polarising and amplifying issues too. You can't speak at length and with nuance. It's all short slogans and virtue signalling which tribe you belong to in various ways. Since I've always felt on the edge of and both in but outside various tribes, I feel divorced from this. I know how complex it is because I live it. If you think it's just racism I don't think you are necessarily in touch tbh.

People want to be able to feed their kids and have a roof over their head's supported by a job that is safe. That's it really. You get social discontent when as a society that becomes a struggle. Racism comes out of that struggle.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 06/08/2024 09:41

Royalshyness · 05/08/2024 23:38

Mumsnet has become a not very nice place compared to the funny, supportive space it was ten years ago when I loved it

yee - racism is here too

Yep.

Reddit is less racist and unpleasant on the threads l go on.

MN used to be fun and supportive. It’s just nasty now.

Devonbabs · 06/08/2024 09:42

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 06/08/2024 08:19

The people who are making Britain look terrible are the racists and the far right thugs who are burning libraries and terrorising innocent people.

Oh no. The self flagation brigade have been doing a fine job stirring up hatred for Britain for a long time.

RedToothBrush · 06/08/2024 09:43

The funny thing is that a number of the rioters have admitted they don't have a reason to be rioting. They aren't protesting. They are rioting because they can riot and because others are rioting and they are caught up in that. Because they have nothing better to do and it's a comment on what they have in their lives. They are led by racists who want to cause bigger issues because they have ideological beliefs and want to capitalise on the lack of purpose and direction and value in others lives.

2024wtf · 06/08/2024 09:50

Devonbabs · 06/08/2024 08:14

This, 100%. I do wonder why people are so fixated on making Britain look terrible?

We need to bring back proper teaching of history, in schools, in the media and in places like the national trust.

do you see your racism? You are very active on lots of boards saying very nasty things.

OP posts:
Teentaxidriver · 06/08/2024 09:53

2024wtf · 05/08/2024 23:40

I think I mean secret like they vote Labour are middle-class but closeted racist. Deep down they resent immigrants and agree with the riots but on the outside in real life, they act disapproving of racism. They drop the mask on Mumsnet.

“Are middle class but…” suggests that it is only the working class who are racist.

Teentaxidriver · 06/08/2024 09:56

itsmabeline · 06/08/2024 00:33

You're complaining about other people's racism while using racist terms. Pot, kettle.

So true. Poster can even see it - no self-awareness.

Teentaxidriver · 06/08/2024 09:56

Sorry poster can’t

Happyher · 06/08/2024 09:57

Prawncow · 05/08/2024 23:56

I’m sure there are racist MNers but there seems to have been an influx of brand new posters signing up to make these kind of comments in the past few days.

I agree. I’ve just deleted my nextdoor account due to the influx of racist comments and no moderation. I think there’s a deliberate attempt to escalate this

2024wtf · 06/08/2024 09:57

Teentaxidriver · 06/08/2024 09:53

“Are middle class but…” suggests that it is only the working class who are racist.

the middle class hide it well. they're not the ones rioting are they

OP posts:
Teentaxidriver · 06/08/2024 09:59

CurlsnSunshinetime4tea · 06/08/2024 04:52

behind the mask of anonymity people do express some views that they know are socially unacceptable.
but likewise not being in favor of immigration at the level that is currently happening is not racist nor is pointing out the challenges of helping refugees who have language barriers, health concerns and little support systems.
then there is the longer term issues of the first and second generation of immigrants.
the immigrants themselves may be very grateful BUT their children (first generation immigrants) may not and may feel alone unsupported and unaccepted not fully understanding the reason why their parents left their "homeland".
not liking the current situation is not racist.

Well said.

Teentaxidriver · 06/08/2024 10:00

2024wtf · 06/08/2024 09:57

the middle class hide it well. they're not the ones rioting are they

You don’t understand nuance or degree or qualification do you? People are allowed to have reservations and criticisms.

Teentaxidriver · 06/08/2024 10:02

Dorisbonson · 06/08/2024 06:52

I'm married to an Eastern European, I have campaigned for racial equality and attended events at Mosques more frequently than church.

I didn't vote last election but don't believe Reform are racist, don't believe Nigel Farage is bad. I have commented on this multiple times on here. I think the UKs immigration policy is unsustainable and think those people who call Reform racist have almost been brainwashed - it's not wrong to question levels of immigration in the UK.

We averaged 750,000 net migrants in each of the last two years. France and Germany had less than 200,000. The USA had around a million. It's not racist to question that number.

We have many immigrants into the UK who don't share the same values as us. They don't believe in the rights of women in the same way people born in the UK do. It's not racist to question whether this is bad for the UK.

It's not racist to question the level of crime being committed by migrants in the UK. The government don't collect the statistics so there is no evidence. In other European countries they do collect the statistics and migrants are responsible for significantly more crime per head than people born in those countries. It's not racist to have concerns about this.

I also question whether there is a two tier punishment system in the UK. Whether that is true or not there is a widespread lack of trust in the fairness of the system - that undermines our judicial and policing system.

Voila

2024wtf · 06/08/2024 10:03

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2024wtf · 06/08/2024 10:04

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bombastix · 06/08/2024 10:17

I don’t know about imagining that far right people would not have a problem with tax paying employed migrants. This is white nationalism and defined to be English. Don’t lie to yourself and say you would be okay if you didn’t fit into these categories. You would be more likely a target.

HardyRoseSquid · 06/08/2024 10:18

It’s horrendous. Lots of posters fighting the good fight but also an absolute deluge of ignorant, racist shit. Combined with the classism and transphobia rife on this site it’s a proper cesspool sometimes.

Zimunya · 06/08/2024 10:23

bombastix · 06/08/2024 10:17

I don’t know about imagining that far right people would not have a problem with tax paying employed migrants. This is white nationalism and defined to be English. Don’t lie to yourself and say you would be okay if you didn’t fit into these categories. You would be more likely a target.

@bombastix - assuming this is for me as I posted about DH being a tax paying, employed migrant. You may well be right. I don't know any far right people to ask, so I am making assumptions here!

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 06/08/2024 10:24

Devonbabs · 06/08/2024 09:42

Oh no. The self flagation brigade have been doing a fine job stirring up hatred for Britain for a long time.

When you say "oh no", are you saying that you don't agree that the people that are burning libraries, looting shops and terrorising innocent people are making Britain look terrible?

Do you support what they're doing? Are you proud of the imagine of Britain that they are projecting to the world?

Please don't give me a load of whataboutery about what others may or may not have done wrong. I just want a straight answer to the question of whether or not you agree that the rioters are making Britain look terrible.

Superworm24 · 06/08/2024 10:26

RedToothBrush · 06/08/2024 08:55

The one sensible post on this thread, that acknowledges it's a deeply complex issue and that the lack of depth to conversation is part of the problem. There are social issues that are made worse by cultural differences. We may not like this or want to acknowledge this but they exist.

Cultural differences can be about race or religion. But they can also be about class. Or the location of the local community you live in and what social change has been in that area and how that has happened.

We should be able to talk about these social change issues and how people struggle with them without racism being shouted because it's important to understand the history and why people feel threatened by it. This unlocks how to stop that fear.

Shouting racism immediately just creates this silencing effect which is amplifying discontent because people feel dismissed. That then creates racism due to resentment.

My point here is there has been a failure to manage social change. The pace of this change has been at different speeds in different areas. And the impact has been different.

And then there's been gentrification and social decay at play - and this is really important to understand as part of all this. The destruction of communities is a huge driver of these issues.

Middle class people have different social structures and expectations. They grow up in a certain area, move away to university and then move where work is. They have an identity that's based around this and is free from location. It's about their job and about their education.

More working class communities are very different. They value staying in one place their whole life, knowing all the neighbours, having their whole family living close by.

What we've seen in the last couple of decades is a rising middle class which has expanded and become much bigger. That's more mobility.

I live in a white affluent area in the North. There's a certain resentment from those who are 'local' and have lived here a very long time. They tend to be more working class and have seen people like them and their families priced out the area by more middle class affluent families. They get frustrated because the area had a community which did lots of local events etc, but people who move into the area don't want to get involved to do the work to maintain these but expect these things to continue magically. They don't want to participate in this community. They want to be separate to it. Equally the incomers can be insufferable snobs who look down their noses at those who have lived here a long time but they seem uneducated or uncouth because they don't holiday in the right place or they don't shop in the right place. We can talk about this community change and tension because it's in an affluent white area.

So what happens to all these from the area, who after several generations (or more in a lot of cases) are forced to move to cheaper less desirable areas? They are more exposed to levels of crime they havent previously experienced and they are now isolated and scattered from family. Remember they value these family and friends ties above mobility and education. (Think about the concept of if you have nothing at least you have your family). They feel like the world is getting worse. These are white British people who have effectively been displaced by other white British people.

And this process is repeating in various forms around the country, with the gap between affluence and poverty growing.

If you live in an area which the main industrial employers were decimated, your community changed in a different way. Anyone who could leave did. Often education was a way out. But training and education hasn't been accessible for many. The decline in apprenticeships and work based tracing and focus shifting to degree level education and entry is notable - jobs that you previously could have worked your way up to are now 'closed' unless you have a degree. The nature of that job hasn't changed, just the means to entry. So people who are educated are then viewed as 'traitors' for abandoning the key values of family and friends or 'the enemy' because they are the gatekeepers preventing opportunities to those from more deprived backgrounds. There's an increasing alienation from this point of view. No one wants to live in that area anymore. So you start to get people moving in who have been pushed out of other areas and perhaps are less desirable. Your crime goes up because of those antisocial problems. If no one cares about the area and there's no money to maintain it, it goes into terminal decline. This has been happening with white communities with white people moving to them.

Those people who moved to the above mentioned nice area are totally unaware of a lot of this. They don't share the same priority of the sense of community and being close to family and the friends you grew up with. Their value is people who have the same educational and career related aspirations and having the same leisure interests.

Now add immigration into the mix. I don't have an issue with immigration, but I can see why it would add to the above tensions. One of the key points being that you see trends of people moving to small areas because they have people from the same background who have moved there and there's a certain sense of safety in numbers. They've managed to build community because of this. Just as people who lived there previously have felt their own community disappear. Because they don't share those family or cultural ties those people feel excluded and alienated by those moving in. And little has been done to recognise or address this. It's easy to see why resentment has built up - resentment which also does exist in white gentrifying areas - it's not just about race. The differences might be amplified and more stark though due to language, existing relationships, and religion.

Middle classes who put values of education etc before local community don't understand why this is as important as it is to others.

We see this same divide internationally in voting patterns. It doesn't matter whether we are talking about another European country or America. The same thing is happening. There's a split between these fixed and unfixed demographics. And little work being done to help each understand each other. The mobile class is the affluent one who makes the decisions. The one that's fixed feels a loss of sense of power and a degradation to their community which is being accompanied by a degradation economically and socially. The mobile class is very often detached from this.

I understand why racial tensions and immigration therefore has been blamed and the far right has been able to exploit this. Because there's are elements to migration patterns that people recognise. But actually it's more about social and economic changes being poorly managed and hidden from decision makers who are detached from the levels of crime and poverty that has emerged. And it's easy for this areas to be written off as uneducated or uncouth because of these lack of shared values and understanding.

Racial tension is the result of decades of social neglect for certain areas and a dismissal of the effects of gentrifying areas. Middle classes are happy because they've got the nice houses and the good schools. Immigrants tend to be the ones either with an education before they came (and thus more middle class) or a skill (remember the decline of apprenticeships) or money (the means by which to move at all). Their mobility means they have more shared values with middle classes. And it's harder for them to be accepted by those in communities who value these fixed values of family and friends you grew up with because they are 'outsiders' (and would be treated like this even if they were white).

I think race and religion is an amplifier. It is worse because of them. And this goes in both directions. But it's not the underlying tension. That's along class and economic lines. Which is why we are seeing similar patterns despite different ethnic migration patterns.

I notice that different social classes increasingly seem to speak almost entirely different languages even in English because of these different values systems. And this is getting worse. And we aren't recognising this.

You fix racial tensions by understanding wider social and economic tensions and these differences in value systems and you make sure that people feel their values are understood as important. Stuff like helping people stay in their geographic location despite economic changes is important to a huge number of people. Because it's not about how convenient it is to work and house prices - it's about maintaining that day to day contact with your neighbour or relative. If that's your priority in life and the only thing that matters - not your career or lifestyle that's your whole world. Others who move willingly make a choice to improve their lives, we are talking about the reverse - people forced to move to the detriment of their lives.

Personally I think a lot more could have been done for housing schemes for locals but instead it was about developers making the biggest profits possible. And this has had massive social implications. We usually hear 'taking all the council houses' argument but actually I think it's about these movements internally in the private sector just as much as people migrating from outside.

I've lived on a 'mixed' estate before and actually I think there's a lot to be said for social housing being integrated with private housing for various reasons. There's a huge snobbery about it. And I've heard far too many people say they'd refuse to live there because of it or refuse to live next to a council estate. There's part of your issue right there - deliberate marginalisation of white working class by white middle class.

But it's easier to shout racism at people rather than look at the economic angle to this.

Remember black lives matter was originally a Marxist organisation but as it became mainstream and white allyship emerged it was stripped to purely identity related issues.

Why? And why does it matter? Cos it very very much does.

Brilliant posts. It's easy to call people racist without understanding how we got here. And it's especially easy when you are sat in your nice middle-class neighbourhood and you aren't facing the same challenges that some are.

We should call out racism where we see it but some people need to check the definition they are using.

bombastix · 06/08/2024 10:28

Zimunya · 06/08/2024 10:23

@bombastix - assuming this is for me as I posted about DH being a tax paying, employed migrant. You may well be right. I don't know any far right people to ask, so I am making assumptions here!

Well my experience of the English far right is that yes, your husband’s face would not fit. The far right in the UK can be unbelievably violent.

20 years ago I recall being in the East End and seeing a man with NF (National Front) shaved into his buzz cut on the bus who purposely sat next to a Muslim woman, spat on her and punched her. No words spoken. Do not think these people are motivated by reason.

Hadjab · 06/08/2024 10:34

RogueFemale · 06/08/2024 02:38

I'm actually more worried to discover there's so many who seem to sort of hate animals.

Why? Just why?

What do animals have to do with this topic?

And yes, I know it's a public forum so you can express your thoughts, but what are you really adding to the discussion, other than vapidity?

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