How do men get away with this?

[leavethingsalone]

My friend's daughter is absolutely stunning (and a lovely modest girl). She's 18. She often gets told by strangers how beautiful she is.

That's all great, but she's recently started going clubbing and has come home upset because of the attention.

Most recently she was dancing and a guy came up behind her and was grinding on her from behind. He wouldn't leave her alone. Luckily her friends saw what was going on and stopped it!

I'm sure this happens to lots of other young women too!

She's (hopefully) off to uni in September and has been looking forward to this, but is now starting to feel unsafe as her parents won't be nearby to look out for her!

When will men realise that this simply isn't appropriate behaviour and that women should feel safe when they are out?

I taught DDs to use their voices. Piss off perv is a totally acceptable response.
As is get your hand away from me NOW and other similar phrases.
Always said calmly, they were in control and to think of the perv as a scummy little man to send on his way.

Felaku · Today 07:47
cupcaske123 · Today 07:30
I'm sorry you feel as though you have no bodily autonomy, that's a sad inditement of our society.
Show quote history
No I do feel as if I've got bodily autonomy and if a guy grinded on me in a nightclub I'd tell him to get lost because of all the reasons I've patiently described elsewhere for the seemingly hard of thinking who see no difference between being grinded on in a nightclub and a supermarket.

It's not us who are hard of thinking. We have explained to you. You clearly believe that a woman choosing to be in a nightclub should expect entitled male behaviour.
Telling them to get lost is after the fact. The action should not happen, regardless of where the woman is.
A woman being in a night club is not an invitation.

@NoisyDenimShaker totally agree about the book "the gift of fear" by Gavin De Becker- its such a great book and every woman should read it

Me too. It's brilliant.

A young woman should be able to be anywhere without fear of anyone, but particularly men, deciding they are allowed to use any part of themselves to touch any part of her.

Absolutely, they should be, but in reality, they aren't. This kind of behaviour is astonishingly common in nightclubs. Until having my DD I was often out (only a couple of years ago!).

This will happen probably multiple times a night. She needs to build some resilience to it otherwise she will return home from every night out upset. Tell em to get lost, if they don't, alert the bouncer and they'll be removed.

Saying “it shouldn’t happen” well no we all think that but saying so doesn’t help your teen dds at all practically when it does happen 🙄. Do you have teen girls?

I must make it clear here that I am only talking about grinding which OP asked about and that it could be considered in a nightclub setting to be a dance move.

I just think this is a fuss over nothing.

Spiking and intimate groping are all wrong. I agree.

But really pretending that nightclubs are places where women can expect impeccable behaviour from men is daft given that they're places that people go to pull AND get drunk/drugged up to boot.

It’s bloody awful, men are just so entitled. o hope she has supportive pals at uni who all look out for each other. When I was at uni, I was head butted to the floor trying to stop this man sleazing over my very beautiful friend, the aggression was awful.

there’s a girl in my sons class who is an absolutely beautiful looking child’s, but every time I see her I just feel sorry for all the crap that will come her way.

*She often gets told by strangers how beautiful she is.

That's all great*

This is part of the problem. She gets unsolicited comments on her looks, and you think it’s OK! It starts with that. That arrogant belief they have a right to comment on and judge us. And you’re just as much a part of that part of our culture. Men can fuck of commenting on we look.

It’s not going to change. Not in my life time, hopefully in hers but not whilst she’s young.
She needs to learn to keep herself safe. Don’t get drunk, don’t end up alone with men, know how she’s getting home, etc.

What disgusts me, is that my youngest - 15 - would read this and say, “she’s 18 and this is new to her?” 🤬

My son briefly worked in a gay club, which he thought would be fun, as female friends of his had enjoyed working there. The level of harassment he got was horrific.

It’s men, but it’s also alcohol, and something to do with the vulnerability and attractiveness of youth.

Just teach her to stick with friends, look out for each other, and leave no one behind. And make an angry noise when necessary.

But really pretending that nightclubs are places where women can expect impeccable behaviour from men is daft given that they're places that people go to pull AND get drunk/drugged up to boot.

And some just go to have a good time.
You are outing yourself with every post.

Urgh. I was just saying to my friend the other day about this and how when we went out, it was normal for this to happen. And how times have changed and it wouldn't happen in a club today but clearly it hasn't! Makes me feel sick all the times I was groped and grinded on but just stood there uncomfortably.
It is very disturbing and I'm sorry it happened to her. I think it's an older thing, when I speak to uni age boys, they are horrified at the thought of this and it wouldn't even cross their mind! So hopefully she has a better experience at uni with people her own age.

That always happens have you ever been notting hill carnival and no it's not right and disgusting

Because we can’t. The world is not how we would like it to be. We can campaign, we can get angry on anonymous message boards, we can ensure that we influence the behaviour of the men we can influence. But until the world changes we also have to be prepared to respond to situations that we wish didn’t happen.

Oh my god, seriously? You cannot be that naive.
Pulling, getting drunk and/or drug taking is HAVING/or how people have a good time in nightclubs, else why go there?

It’s always been the way, sadly. I was regularly groped in clubs in my early twenties.
Men and alcohol are a bad combination.

You're contradicting yourself. You said that if someone was grinding against you, that you'd tell him to clear off. That demonstrates that you think it's unacceptable behaviour or you'd allow him to grind against you.

We should all be able to go out and enjoy ourselves without being harassed or assaulted. Walking into a club doesn't mean you sign away your bodily autonomy, there's an issue of consent. If someone asks if you want to grind, and you consent, then that's fine. However touching your body in a sexual way non consensually isn't acceptable, no matter where you are.

If a man went up to another man in a nightclub and started grinding against his arse, he'd get a broken nose. Try telling him that he should expect that kind of behaviour and to stop making a fuss.

It is out of order, but clearly many men - especially under the influence of alcohol - will behave this way.

She needs to do what women have always done - ensure she is with friends, never be/leave anyone alone, make sure that when drinking herself she is never out of it, and she needs to learn to speak up. As others have said she could have moved away/turned around and told him to eff off.

Also: she needs to do the usual stuff like never leaving drinks unattended, ideally buying your own and wearing that nail varnish that means you can test a drink for GHB - all useful safeguards. Watch drinks being made and don’t trust new (even female) friends to go to the bar and buy them as there have been several threads on here about ‘friends’ buying doubles when singles were asked for. It’s still spiking.

If she is lacking in confidence, there are loads of self-defence courses being run this summer (and no doubt at university) - I’d help her find one and see if she can do an intensive before she leaves.

it’s despicable that there are (SOME) men that behave like this, but this will apparently not change unless their male peers also step up and make it clear that their behaviour is not on. So her best bet is to be pragmatic, aware and prepared. Ultimately, we are all responsible for assessing danger and protecting ourselves.

Oh they definitely did do the grinding thing back then. Me and my friends perfected a move which would get the target to the other side of the group of us that were dancing pretty quickly, although it happened so often that we got to the point of just turning round and saying 'will you just fuck off'

Oh my god, seriously? You cannot be that naive.
Pulling, getting drunk and/or drug taking is HAVING/or how people have a good time in nightclubs, else why go there?

Can't decide wether you have been radicalised, or are just a goad

All we can do, is keep raising our sons to be far more respectful, and raise our daughters to have coping strategies when it still does. As her confidence grows as an adult, she will learn better how to intervene quickly and with confidence when a situation is potentially dangerous and boundaries are likely to be crossed. It's unrealistic to think an absence of those skills is okay on the basis that they "should" be unnecessary. My own boys (28 and 22) are horrified by that type of behaviour (whilst it was commonplace when I was young) so I think as a society we are getting there.

Or, we could expect it and enforce it, to make the world more like we want it.

If we don't ever expect respect, we won't get it.

She needs to learn strategies to deal with men like this and bad behaviour like this, as it's rife.

Why does she usually need her friends or parents to rescue her?!

To dance with your friends?

The fact that you think nightclubs are for getting intoxicated shows you have no concept of people different to yourself. Some people just like to go for the atmosphere and the music and to be with their friends in a place they can let their hair down.

The fact that other people use it as a place to drink/take drugs/find sex doesn't mean people who just want to dance with their friends shouldn't be able to do that.

This kind of thing happened to my ex's eldest daughter when she was in her teens. More than once she came home early from nights out because of similar behaviour.
There was even one instance where she was shopping in town with her dad (who is a 6' 17 stone big bloke) where young men were whistling at her (from close proximity, ie, standing outside shops as she walked past with her dad) and making disgusting comments. Quite frankly they were lucky her dad didn't batter them, it's foul, rapey behaviour. I think he was more than ready to have a go at them but she pulled him away.
What kind of mentality do these people have? Clearly no respect for women and girls, including their mothers and sisters.