How do men get away with this?

[leavethingsalone]

My friend's daughter is absolutely stunning (and a lovely modest girl). She's 18. She often gets told by strangers how beautiful she is.

That's all great, but she's recently started going clubbing and has come home upset because of the attention.

Most recently she was dancing and a guy came up behind her and was grinding on her from behind. He wouldn't leave her alone. Luckily her friends saw what was going on and stopped it!

I'm sure this happens to lots of other young women too!

She's (hopefully) off to uni in September and has been looking forward to this, but is now starting to feel unsafe as her parents won't be nearby to look out for her!

When will men realise that this simply isn't appropriate behaviour and that women should feel safe when they are out?

but I can't even tell you how many blokes have approached me from behind in clubs and just started grinding away (or worse).

Yep, tell her never to get the tube in rush hour either.

My clubbing days were the early 80s and this behaviour was absolutely bog standard and commonplace then. Most of us had the experience, when the music changed to a slow number, of being grabbed by a stranger and ground on. I find it so depressing that it still happens and so sorry it happened to your lovely daughter.

This is ludicrous. Many people go to nightclubs to dance, have a couple of drinks, laugh with their friends, socialise, just have fun. I am a married woman in my 40s and once or twice a year my female friends and I go to a nightclub to dance and have fun.

Just because we are in a nightclub does not mean we are there to pull, take drugs, or consent to men dancing up behind us and grinding their willies against our bodies.

I'm amazed there are people saying, "She's 18. She should know how to deal with it."

My daughter recently turned 18 and has only started going to the pub with her friends in the last few weeks. I've brought her up well and have no doubt at all that she wouldn't be sweet talked into the back of a strangers car.

She also knows exactly how to respond to predatory men - in theory. But until she has to put it into practice, she's not going to know what it feels like to be in that situation and have have to deal with it.

To add, she's 5 foot tall and a size 4-6. She doesn't even wear a size 1 shoe! So, if some 6 ft bloke starts behaving inappropriately towards her, I fully expect that she will wobble and possibly be scared about it happening again.

And when it does happen (and yes, it's a when and not an if), I will hope that the people around her are more concerned with the fact that a man behaved in that way towards a woman than whether she felt confident enough to deal with it!

Honestly, older women on here, with years of life experience, post on here because they feel upset about how they responded to an incidence of male aggression or predatory behaviour and thy are told its OK to feel scared, and reminded of the fight, flight, freeze, fawn response and told how ever they respond it's OK. But an 18 year old girl feels a bit intimidated because of her first experience of sexual aggression/intimidation and she should have had the confidence to deal with it?

Fucksake.

Women and alcohol is pretty horrific mix too

They will only realise it when they get clear consistent messaging backed up with strong consequences from society and the law. Women have been fighting this for decades and have made some improvements, with some protections under law in some places. But it hasn't gone far enough. There are too many exclusions, too soft sanctions and an informal but persistent culture that male attention is a compliment, or a joke, or inevitable if a woman looks this way or that way. We need to move to a place if zero tolerance of unwanted attention and where this sort of behaviour is seen as a serious crime.

Honestly the relentless nitpicking of @Felaku makes me wonder when the last time a lot of you went to a nightclub was!

I spent a hell of a lot of time in them until relatively recently, and anecdotally I can say that almost everyone in there is dancing, drinking and/or under the influence of drugs. A proportion of people in there are also actively looking for people to sleep with.

The context is of course relevant to the likelihood of unwanted touching occurring. These are places where people often act out of control, which is why bouncers are there. If all they needed to do was check ID's you'd just find a person behind a desk. I would be significantly more shocked to find someone grinding on me in the bread aisle of Tesco than I would be in a dark room filled with drunk people.

None of it is ok of course, but when it comes to educating our daughters we need to be plain with them about where these unwanted behaviours are more likely to occur so they can be aware that whilst they should be left alone, they might not be.

I don't know about any of you, but I've never been advised to stay in a group or keep my drink covered in the supermarket!

@pinkducky the nitpicking of her is because she keeps saying that in the context of a nightclub, being ground against is ok. She has in fact said it's a "non-event".

If she's raising boys to be men, I worry for my daughter. If she's raising daughters to believe that having someone's crotch against you is acceptable depending on the context (by which she means location), then the problem will never go away.

My DD is 12 but looks older. She has begun to “attract” significant attention from men and boys. It’s so depressing. We were in a cafe on Saturday and a man in his 50/60s was openly staring at her, looking her up and down. I told him that she was 12 and that his behaviour was harassment.

She commented recently that when she wears clothing similar to that of her friends that she feels much more sexualised (my word, not hers) because she has breast development etc. I think what she meant is that some of her friends who are only just beginning to go through puberty look very different in a top or dress than she does.

FFS when will this ever end?

Do you think this causes many men to be fearful of going to nightclubs? Because the only fear I've ever heard expressed by men in these environments is of other men, who when drunk can also be violent.

Obviously in an ideal world she shouldn't have to deal with it. But the world is far from ideal. She needs to sharpen up her elbows and make some big seagull like dance moves (my friend used to do that to protect herself and others in the group.) Also be careful not to be danced into a corner by a stranger, like I was once, and my friends misread the situation and left me to it because they thought I wanted that - I really didn't!

Mummy and Daddy can't come on nights out with her so she'll have to come up with some strategies to keep safe - yes it's annoying but such is life.

My best advice is to stay close to her friends. A mixed-sex group can be helpful, but you have to beware of a male ‘friend’ acting as a protector in order to take advantage.

And very sadly, never trust a stranger on your own.
I hate that we have to crush our friendly instincts. This is absolutely essential: in my sweet friendly teens and early twenties, I was lucky to survive some life-threatening situations.

The same goes for all young women, not just those whose beauty makes them a particular target. I’m ordinary-looking, but have learnt the hard way that men feel entitled to women’s bodies, the same way I’d stroke a cat or pick up an item in a shop. We are so objectified (more than ever these days in widespread pornography) that we’re seen as things rather than people.

My life changed whenever I had a steady boyfriend. Safety from other men. But then relationships often go wrong, and a partner can be dangerous.

It gets easier as you get older, both because predators are drawn to very young potential victims, and because you learn from experience.

I wish OP’s friend, and all young women, good friends and fun and safety.

It’s a tale as old as time, happened to me no end of times….it’s appalling that it still goes on. I don’t know what will ever make it stop.

@IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos she didn't say it's ok, she said she doesn't condone it! But yes she seems dismissive of it by calling it a non-event.

If it happened to me tomorrow in a night club, I would consider it a non-event. I wouldn't expect other women to feel the same way about that though.

If it happened to me in a supermarket I would be very surprised by it and certainly consider it "an event"!

She needs to learn strategies to deal with men like this and bad behaviour like this, as it's rife.

Why does she usually need her friends or parents to rescue her?!

Because if she is an average 5ft 5 woman, standing up to a bigger, taller man is not going to be easy. She will probably be afraid of escalating the situation, because sleazy, gropey entitled men don't usually back off easily.
Now, even at my advanced age, I could do some serious damage, but I don't really want to get into a fight!
There is safety in numbers, he is less likely to escalate if she has back up.
There is nothing worse than being caught up in the escalation with no one to help you.
With the rare exception, most men are stronger than women.
Back in the 70's, in a club with some female friends, I was asked to dance by a huge drunk man. I politely declined, and was hauled across the table by my arm and on to the dance floor. Glasses smashed, drinks everywhere, I was on the floor, the bouncers turned their backs.
My brother was in the club. (There was always a blooming brother somewhere!) I won't tell you what happened, because it's outing, but yes, I was glad of the rescue.

I’ve had this sort of harassment all my life, as I’m sure most women have.

I grew up with punk and got used to challenging men very loudly (and with the sharp elbows) so everyone could see what they were up to. Same when walking home, when I regularly had to shout at men to eff off to make it clear I wasn’t to be messed with.

The most liberating places were free parties and gay clubs, where I could dance all night in my bra without being bothered by it.

But it seems to be getting worse again. Every young women I know has been sexually harassed/assaulted when out.

Sounds like me at 18. I actually had men physically pick me up and carry me a way from my friends in clubs and put their hands up my skirt etc on the dance floor. My flatmates used to countdown from ten when I walked through the club doors how quickly a group of men would surround me. I was a virgin and it was distressing.

Looking back all the attention I got from men was the cause of a lot of mental problems and I had a breakdown. I tried to tell my mum once about a particularly distressing day where on the train back home one man kept touching my leg so I moved and then another man kept touching my hair, but my jealous mum just rolled her eyes at me. Even recently I was followed home by a man pushing my baby in a pushchair. No advice, unfortunately most men are just gross and if statistics are to be believed it’s getting worse. Scared for my daughters’ future!

It becomes a "non-event" when you've accepted it happening to you multiple times.

For an 18 year old on her first nightclub experience, in a day and age where it is expected that women don't just accept this, anyone can understand why it upset her.

And other women just dismissing it in that way is part of the problem.

All women should be outraged that any woman has had some random man's penis rubbed against her, without her consent, regardless of where it happened. The fact we aren't means it'll never be seen as unacceptable by men. Because if women don't think it's wrong, when it's happening to them, how can we expect men to think it's wrong?

When other men start loudly and confidently calling out the bullshit, and when you can confidently go to the management in a club, bar or any such venue, and that behaviour will get you thrown out immediately.

“Else why go there”???

To dance, revel in the music, work off loads of physical energy, be in a happy crowd of friends?

I didn't say grinding in a nightclub was OK or pleasant but it is mitigated by the fact a nightclub can be reasonably conceived to be a place people go to indulge in debauched behaviour and can therefore be viewed as a clumsy attempt at sexual interaction than actual assault.
Or just plain old raunchy dancing.

Intent matters.

It is not the same as groping or spiking a drink.

To say getting grinded on in a nightclub is the same as getting grinded on in a supermarket is patently absurd.

Also absurd is the notion that people go there to just dance. It's about getting pissed (or as another poster euphemistically put it 'having a few drinks' ), maybe taking drugs and pulling.

I would expect the police to take grinding in supermarket seriously but not in a nightclub.

Thanks for trying to see my point of view.

Really, pretty sure dancing doesn't have to take place in a nightclub.

You're just being disengenuous.

I would expect the police to take grinding in supermarket seriously but not in a nightclub

If a woman says "I said no and he continued to rub his crotch against me", it should be expected that it'll be taken seriously, regardless of location.

It should be taken seriously if anyone rubs their genitals against you without consent regardless of location. It should t be seen as a "clumsy attempt at sexual interaction" because you can't have a sexual interaction without consent. Anything without consent is just assault.

There's the problem. It's seen as ok if the intent is to attempt to have sex with someone. It's not ok to try and have sex with someone you don't know by forcing your genitals on them, without even so much as a "hello" first, or any attempt to ascertain if they might consent to sex with you, before starting to attempt to have sex with them.

Neither does getting pissed, high or pulling. They don't have to take place in a nightclub.

I didn't say grinding in a nightclub was OK or pleasant but it is mitigated by the fact a nightclub can be reasonably conceived to be a place people go to indulge in debauched behaviour and can therefore be viewed as a clumsy attempt at sexual interaction than actual assault.
Or just plain old raunchy dancing.

FFS.
Know your place women. Stick to supermarkets, or it is perfectly reasonable that you will suffer someone's debauched behaviour. That's why you went there.
It's perfectly reasonable to assume you are up for it - you went out flaunting yourself, for goodness sake!
I wasn't groping you, it was just me being raunchy.