How do men get away with this?

[leavethingsalone]

My friend's daughter is absolutely stunning (and a lovely modest girl). She's 18. She often gets told by strangers how beautiful she is.

That's all great, but she's recently started going clubbing and has come home upset because of the attention.

Most recently she was dancing and a guy came up behind her and was grinding on her from behind. He wouldn't leave her alone. Luckily her friends saw what was going on and stopped it!

I'm sure this happens to lots of other young women too!

She's (hopefully) off to uni in September and has been looking forward to this, but is now starting to feel unsafe as her parents won't be nearby to look out for her!

When will men realise that this simply isn't appropriate behaviour and that women should feel safe when they are out?

I'm sorry you feel as though you have no bodily autonomy, that's a sad inditement of our society.

Young women need to be taught what to say and do in these kinds of situations. They can’t always rely on friends and parents. Men aren’t changing in a hurry

I am a woman, just one who's intelligent enough to realise that nightclubs are highly sexually charged environments where grinding and other sexual passes are just par for the course.

I draw the line at groping, but grinding? I'm sorry but I see that as not a big deal in a nightclub.

I have. And I wouldn't accept being touched if I didn't want to, in a nightclub or anywhere else.

You are part of the problem. And you need to look at that in yourself.

My daughter will be raised to be able to assert her boundaries, because I know she'll have to. But that doesn't mean I don't wish she wouldn't have to.

The men who aren’t creeps absolutely are creeps if they’re not calling out this behaviour.

In the last few years I’ve come to the conclusion that most men are ok with this behaviour, and going by some of the comments here so are some women.

Men won’t solve it because most don’t have a problem with it. They are invested in their porn, in their power.

You realise that "grinding" is a man rubbing his penis against a woman? Why is that something you think is acceptable in any context, unless she's agreed to it?

Would you tell your daughter she just has to accept a penis being rubbed against her?

This is the right answer. Report inappropriate behaviour to security and failing that the bar manager. While I get the sentiment to want to 'teach them a lesson' through physical force the reality is your average dick head will not have some Damascene moment where they think about the error of their ways but will probably respond in kind. Unless you are very proficient in self defence/martial arts the chances are you will come off second best in any confrontation.

Yeah because it's her fault she doesn't like to be touched by men inappropriately.
How dare she!

Oh go and look up the word context for goodness sake

I know exactly what context means.
You clearly feel that context means in a night club 'she's up for it', that's why she is there, where as in a supermarket doing her woman's work, she can expect a little bodily autonomy.

You make yourself clearer with every comment and every reply. You are the problem.

I thought Noisydenims tips were excellent.

I would agree with all those and add that young women need to immediately drop the polite / people pleasing thing they are conditioned into the second a man pushes a boundary. You owe him NOTHING.

Also think the outraged posts are silly. Of course we wish this didnt happen but it does and we need to help our dds going out into the world deal with it.

Has she not socialised much at 6th form? Ideally it’s better if they start doing this while living at home so parents can be on hand. Going to university at 18 entirely wide eyed and on your own isn’t great.

I must have been living under a rock because I don't recall this ever happening to me in a nightclub. I used to frequent them at least a couple of times a week in the 1970s. Has male behaviour changed since then?

I agree that the entitlement of the male species is utterly disgusting and inappropriate.

Had this happen lots of times in my nightclub days, and I'm very ordinary-looking. I would give them a little kick or stamp on the foot and move away and carry on having out with my friends. It always dealt with the issue.

At other times it was part of the dancing, sometimes with someone I'd just met. No verbal consent given, just lots of eye contact.

No one said it was her fault. People were just saying if she didn't like it she could have just walked off back to her friends or told him firmly to fuck off. He wasn't likely to do anything more in the club.
No women shouldn't have to put up with it. But my mum did, I did and my 18 year old did when she went clubbing for the first time Friday night. Unfortunately you can't change it, at least not yet, but she does need to try and be brave enough to just walk away/stay with her friends. Like I said she shouldn't have to but that's the reality.

There's a lot of (supposedly) women on this thread saying that because she was out, she just has to deal with it. Some even saying that because she was in a nightclub it's expected for men to behave like that

Those people are the problem. Maybe if we expect men to behave better, rather than like perverts, they'll grow up knowing they should behave better.

How about a few lessons in self defence?

No I do feel as if I've got bodily autonomy and if a guy grinded on me in a nightclub I'd tell him to get lost because of all the reasons I've patiently described elsewhere for the seemingly hard of thinking who see no difference between being grinded on in a nightclub and a supermarket.

The only difference is that you expect men to behave like that in a nightclub. Why can't we expect respect wherever we are?

In Brighton for example they have a scheme called ask for Angela where you ask bar staff and they know you are being harassed etc and will help or call a taxi.

A personal safety alarm (Ashley) are great for this. Always stick together on a night out. Phone always charged. Always have cash. Maybe a self defence course - I did one and that helped my confidence a lot.

What you describe used to be less intense and more consensual, guys would see if you were up for a boogie and back off if not. To just randomly start grinding is a huge invasion of space and overstepping of boundaries. If it happened which it could if they were drunk you'd turn away dance more vigorously with your friends and elbow them out of the way or move if they were complete twats. Going out in mixed groups also helps.

When will men realise that this simply isn't appropriate behaviour and that women should feel safe when they are out?

They wont. I started clubbing in my teens and this was in the 90s and it was happening then and it still is now.

I've been sexually harassed at work in almost every job I've had - have done ever since age 15 from much older men too so it's not even like they can use the stupid excuse that they were "drunk".

Thankfully work sexual harassment is taken much more seriously now but I cant see the culture drastically changing any time soon.

You have to develop a thick skin and call it out, make it known it's unacceptable whenever it happens- make a loud fuss about it. What would really help is if other men did this too but sadly, this is rare from my experience.

I remember being in a nightclub with my little sister and a group of lads were doing this to her and touching her up. I was so enraged i grabbed him by his throat and said in his ear ‘get your fucking hands off my sister’. They all slunk off into the night. I wonder if he did that again?

i still find it shocking that i did that. I’m not one for violence but that made me see red

I see. So you do think it's unacceptable behaviour. Your posts give the impression that women should just accept this kind of behaviour because of where they are.

Why do we accept such low standards for men in society?
Some of the comments make it clear that it is women’s responsibility to protect themselves, with men’s animal behaviour being entirely normal and to be expected.
If people started standing up for women the world could easily be a much better place, but everywhere you turn - clubbing, sport, work, women’s rights, it’s all about the men.

Next time she is dancing and that happens I'd advise her to assertively say 'you are runbbing your crotch on me, that is sexual assault' and have him removed by security. Every single time.

I would agree with calling it out loudly, I remember once ( long time ago) putting my cigarette out on a creep who put his hand up my skirt, he didn't realise it was me and started a fight with another creep. Not saying this was right but.....

Because men are men, and we live in a patriachy. These situations have always happened, and it's not likely to change. We can work for change but have to live in the world as it is in the meantime.

I suggest self defence and self assertiveness training classes. Many of us have had to learn the hard way that no one comes to the rescue.