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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Feminists against sex segregation in sports

1000 replies

Tandora · 03/08/2024 21:22

AIBU to share a different perspective on a subject that seems to be almost entirely taken for granted on mumsnet? This is not something I have a definite opinion on myself (although I am against sex testing and I fully support the rights of trans women and women with differences in sex development to compete alongside other women in sporting competitions at all levels).

However I have found it really upsetting the degrading way that people have been speaking recently about top/ elite female athletes; denigrating their sporting prowess, and portraying them as weak, feeble and helpless, particularly in the wake of this boxing match controversy.

I started looking into opinions on the issue, starting with a search on “feminists against sex segregation in sport”. I came across this really interesting article.

AIBU to share?

journals.library.wustl.edu/lawreview/article/3150/galley/19983/view/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
Tandora · 03/08/2024 23:43

SilenceInside · 03/08/2024 23:39

@Tandora so the way to challenge those attitudes is not to have mixed sex competitions, because women would never be seen in elite competition again. We need to challenge the media to report on women's sport equally, especially state broadcasters like the BBC/C4. We need to support women's sport ourselves and promote it to other people. We need to talk about women sports stars to our children, male and female.

I watched Simone Biles with my son today, and explained about her excellence and her physical prowess, for example.

So many ways to make change, but not this nonsense idea of removing women's sporting categories.

Thanks for this perspective. I do agree with these points.

OP posts:
Igneococcus · 03/08/2024 23:43

I don’t know def don’t have all the answers, but people have suggested height, weight, hormones…**

I'm taller and probably heavier than my dp but he can lift much heavier weights than I can and he could easily beat me in a physical fight (not that we ever do fight). My height, weight and overall very decent physical fitness doesn't compensate for the lack of a Y chromosome (or functioning SRY gene to be precise).

NonPlayerCharacter · 03/08/2024 23:44

Tandora · 03/08/2024 23:41

I’m engaging with the people who are participqting in the topic!

im copy-pasting the very numerous posts that are just nasty, gratuitous personal attacks for reasons expalined above. I think it’s really important to draw attention to the sheer volume of these and their character.

They're not personal attacks, though. And does that really carry weight from a poster who's admitted they've been deleted for using offensive slurs and has called MNHQ unfair for not allowing them?

Tandora · 03/08/2024 23:44

ColinMyWifeBridgerton · 03/08/2024 23:37

I haven't RTFT. But my opinion is that we need to examine what sport is for. I think elite sport showcases and pushes the limits of what the human body can do. The thing about "the human body" though is that it comes in two varieties, male and female. I'm not interested in pretending male and females have identical bodies. I am interested in seeing what women (and men) can achieve with their bodies.

It's nothing to do with women being worse or weaker. People who love sport are interested to see what a woman's body can do, and celebrate new milestones, precisely because we see women as a way of being human. Female bodies aren't shit and weak male bodies. Why should we pretend they are?

👍🏻

OP posts:
CocoapuffPuff · 03/08/2024 23:48

Dr Stacy Sims has done a massive amount of research in the area of sex differences between male and female, particularly in relation to sports.

https://www.fasttalklabs.com/fast-talk/why-women-are-not-small-men-with-dr-stacy-sims/

This is just one of many articles and interviews. Read. OP, you say you're not an expert (and I believe you) - Dr Stacy Sims IS. She's done aaaalll the work, you just have to read it. 📚

Why Women Are Not Small Men, with Dr. Stacy Sims

We speak with Dr. Stacy Sims, one of the leading researchers on women’s physiology and training and performance.

https://www.fasttalklabs.com/fast-talk/why-women-are-not-small-men-with-dr-stacy-sims

Tandora · 03/08/2024 23:49

CocoapuffPuff · 03/08/2024 23:48

Dr Stacy Sims has done a massive amount of research in the area of sex differences between male and female, particularly in relation to sports.

https://www.fasttalklabs.com/fast-talk/why-women-are-not-small-men-with-dr-stacy-sims/

This is just one of many articles and interviews. Read. OP, you say you're not an expert (and I believe you) - Dr Stacy Sims IS. She's done aaaalll the work, you just have to read it. 📚

thanks im definitely interested and will take a read / listen (as long as its not just anti trans stuff).

OP posts:
CocoapuffPuff · 03/08/2024 23:50

Educate yourself.

Tandora · 03/08/2024 23:51

Tandora · 03/08/2024 23:49

thanks im definitely interested and will take a read / listen (as long as its not just anti trans stuff).

*as long as its not just anti trans stuff
*
from a quick glance it doesn’t look like it has anything to do with trans 👏🏻👍🏻

OP posts:
Tandora · 03/08/2024 23:52

CocoapuffPuff · 03/08/2024 23:50

Educate yourself.

Was that necessary?

OP posts:
OvaHere · 03/08/2024 23:52

Tandora · 03/08/2024 23:41

I’m engaging with the people who are participqting in the topic!

im copy-pasting the very numerous posts that are just nasty, gratuitous personal attacks for reasons expalined above. I think it’s really important to draw attention to the sheer volume of these and their character.

I'm the woman you called a sexual fascist on one of the earlier threads. Nothing I've called you comes close to being that gratuitous.

DrBlackbird · 03/08/2024 23:53

Of course sport needs to be sex segregated. IMO no feminists would or could argue otherwise ie no ‘fassis’ because doing away with sex differentiation would be to deny women the chance to win in sport in their own right.

Men remain, on average, larger and stronger than women, possessing 26lbs (10kg) of skeletal muscle, 40% more upper-body strength and 33% more lower body strength. It isn’t demeaning to acknowledge that men have physical capabilities that are stronger, faster than women and that women need their own sex-based categories.

I’d have hoped that we’d have moved beyond the playground taunts of boys claiming superiority on the basis of physical prowess and acknowledged that, in fact, sex-based differences are something to celebrate. Look at how fabulous Simone Biles is as a female athelete. No to mention overcoming growing up in care and being sexually assaulted by that disgusting man.

So I don’t understand this suggestion for denying science and erasing women’s chances at winning, at earning money or medals or chances to transfer winning at sport into later opportunities.

CocoapuffPuff · 03/08/2024 23:53

Tandora · 03/08/2024 23:52

Was that necessary?

Yes, I believe it was.

Alucard55 · 03/08/2024 23:54

Tandora · 03/08/2024 23:25

I don’t know. I do think there has to be stratification for women to participate in elite sports, I just don’t know that sex is the only or best way to do it.
But I’m not sure… perhaps it is, I just worry about the way it reinforces harmful gender stereotypes and perceptions of female inferiority. And now we have the concern of excluding sex and gender minorities.

I'm just trying to understand this.

I just worry about the way it reinforces harmful gender stereotypes and perceptions of female inferiority

Wouldn't males and females competing against each other reinforce that? Men would (almost?) always win when competing in a physical activity against a woman. Leaving women unrepresented on the world sporting stage?

And now we have the concern of excluding sex and gender minorities.

I think correctly categorizing individuals would solve this. But this needs to be a conversation based on scientific facts rather than how a person feels or identifies.

Tandora · 03/08/2024 23:55

CocoapuffPuff · 03/08/2024 23:53

Yes, I believe it was.

Cool. Well I’ll know next time not to engage with you in good faith.

OP posts:
boobleblingo · 03/08/2024 23:55

KatieTaylorMadeMeDoIt · 03/08/2024 23:28

You ain’t no feminist, bruv 😉

This needs credit for how very witty it is, thanks for highlighting, OP

Helleofabore · 03/08/2024 23:56

Tandora · 03/08/2024 23:36

sadly I think a lot of people think that: isn’t that why it gets less attention?
that women are paid less etc?

on the other thread people kept comparing the top female althletes to “crap” and “mediocre” men. Yes, the top female athletes are out performed by male elite athletes , but they are still more athletic than the overwhelming majority of average men. I don’t think comparing them to a “crap man” is really fair.

Edited

Actually, that is your interpretation of what we had been writing. We were pointing out that the male athletes losing were losing because they when you considered their physical advantages, if they were elite level male athletes at the same level of peak performance as the female people that they were losing against, they would not have lost.

To be very clear, if the male athletes losing to those exceptional female athletes were as good and as fit and performing at their full potential as those elite athletes, they would have won.

In fact, several male athletes are competing in female events and setting records that female people may never break. Those male athletes are in almost comparable performance level as the exceptional female athletes, but their physical advantage is coming into play, so to speak.

Consider the physical advantage to constitute x% performance advantage over all. To achieve the same level of exceptionality of the female athletes, their performance will = peak female athlete performance + x%. Hence setting records that may not be broken.

If the female athletes are beating the male athletes and those athletes have male pubertal advantage, then they simply are not as good as the female athlete. In fact, if those male athletes with x% pubertal advantage tied with the exceptional female athlete, then by comparison, the female athlete is better.

That is the point posters were making. Maybe you were so hung up on censuring posters language, you forgot to ask for further clarification.

Saschka · 03/08/2024 23:56

WickedSerious · 03/08/2024 22:55

He doesn't wear one because he's a man.

I’m not arguing with that, but plenty of devout Muslim women don’t wear them either so I don’t think it should be used as a gotcha here - unless we are trying to police biological women’s hijab-wearing, which hopefully we are not.

Alucard55 · 03/08/2024 23:56

ImASexFascistApparently · 03/08/2024 23:31

Toilet roll over or under?... ooh controversial! 😂

Always over😲

Tandora · 03/08/2024 23:56

boobleblingo · 03/08/2024 23:55

This needs credit for how very witty it is, thanks for highlighting, OP

This needs credit for how very witty it is, thanks for highlighting, OP

OP posts:
willowtolive · 03/08/2024 23:57

SoupDragon · 03/08/2024 22:09

A person would have to be pretty thick if they can't understand why, in general, sport needs to be segregated by sex.

Edited

Yep, nail on the the head. Or a troll

Tandora · 03/08/2024 23:57

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Tandora · 03/08/2024 23:58

willowtolive · 03/08/2024 23:57

Yep, nail on the the head. Or a troll

Yep, nail on the the head. Or a troll

OP posts:
ImASexFascistApparently · 03/08/2024 23:58

Tandora · 03/08/2024 23:36

sadly I think a lot of people think that: isn’t that why it gets less attention?
that women are paid less etc?

on the other thread people kept comparing the top female althletes to “crap” and “mediocre” men. Yes, the top female athletes are out performed by male elite athletes , but they are still more athletic than the overwhelming majority of average men. I don’t think comparing them to a “crap man” is really fair.

Edited

Yes, the top female athletes are out performed by male elite athletes

Which is why we have to sex segregate sports obviously.

I mean your non-arguments just fall apart, even you don't really believe what you're saying.

Are you just trying to wind us up? It's not working, I really needed a good laugh after the dystopian nightmare that was the recent boxing fiasco where men have punched women repeatedly in the face to cheering crowds.

Catsmere · 03/08/2024 23:59

Tandora · 03/08/2024 23:16

Calling me a MRA is about as far from facts as one could be

How so? You claim men can be women because they say so. You think men should be allowed in women's sports. You're on board with a male supremacist movement. Assuming you are a woman, I'd use the old term feMRA, or TRA, which amounts to the same thing.

SilenceInside · 03/08/2024 23:59

FFS stop the stupid quote and highlight business. It's derailing your own thread.

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