to say women don't have XY chromosomes?

[taylorswift1989]

Seeing a lot of posts on social media with people admitting they were "wrong" to call Imane Khelif a man, and that they now understand "she's a woman with XY chromosomes."

Am I going insane? A person with XY chromosomes is male! (Regardless of how they identify, of course.) Why are people saying stuff that is obviously nonsensical? Are people really that ignorant of basic biological facts?

You don't know this. It is a reasonable ASSUMPTION based on the fact that they were classified female at birth that Khakid has a vulva and at minimum a blind vagina.

You have absolutely no way of knowing if Khalid has a uterus, ovaries, cervix or any other female reproductive organs, because they have not released any medical information (within their rights to never release their private medical information if that's what they choose) and they have not had a child, so no 'proof' through outcome.

So.is someone with kelinfelters classed as male or female? Or is it assessed on an individual basis?

They're male. If there's a Y, always male. HTH

There have been genetic tests. And we all have eyes. Or do you think he sports a packer?

How can 18% of people DISAGREE

Women have XX chromosomes...they cannot have XY
its not a "debate" or POV. Its a factual statement based on science.
I am happy use she her etc in reference to a transwoman but thats exactly what they are... a transwoman.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/

Does this help!!

This

Some women with XY chromosomes have a womb and can get pregnant and give birth, are they men?

Just to add this from the article above (and there are several other clearly extraordinary cases in the medical literature).

A person with a DSD is not trans

*but genetically they are still either male or female - there are no inbetweens

But generic is not only deciding factor to decide one's sex.

I've posted enough on the other thread, and despite it written black and white, posters continued to insist she is male because of the Y chromosome. I can't be bothered to look for the evidence again when it won't change people's mind.

Anyone who actually cares to understand can do their own Google search.

And by the way, not producing your own eggs doesn't mean you produce sperm! You can produce either!

All researchers have emotions as we are all human. I feel very passionately on this topic as I have worked with a lot of people affected by it. This is a debate on mumsnet, and I’d rather not “out” my username. But obviously in scientific publications I would use different language and publish in my real name.

But none of this really matters of course, and you are welcome to think what you like about me. It’s neither her nor there. Much better to spend time thinking and discussing the substantive topics , rather than speculating on my person.

I only mentioned my qualifications as people always throw out the opinion of one random ideologue with qualifications and they think that makes me look silly and shuts down the substantive debate, (because so and so has a degree in biology, or has written this particular book ). It doesn’t. Or at least it shouldn’t. There are many, varied expert opinions (and books) on this topic , as with all subjects .

They are male.

This is why clear language is important for discussions.

None of the boxers in the women’s category have had testosterone levels checked by the ioc (if you believe otherwise please state your source). The following quote is from a statement on the olympics.com site the eligibility check for boxers has been their passports

the gender and age of the athletes are based on their passport.

The ioc has pages of detail on things like gloves in their boxing regulations boxing.athlete365.org/qualification-system-and-rules/ and does say women boxers have to sign to say they are not pregnant but nothing on any testing other than weight.

Both only present karyotype NOT genotype. They clearly do not have a male genotype. The second required egg donation.

So a person with Swyer syndrome and XY chromosomes, a womb who gives birth using donor eggs is a man?
But a woman without a womb who hasn’t given birth but who has XX chromosomes is a woman?

which suggests she’s hardly the Mike Tyson people are making her out to be.

And when the IOC wave through a literal Mike Tyson using the same lies they've peddled this time around will you buy them again and run defence for males in female sport?

Will you enjoy a ringside seat whilst a young women receives life changing injuries or even dies.

Will you ever consider yourself culpable?

Given Khalef almost certainly went through a male puberty, for the purposes of sport (and safety and fairness for women) their sex is MALE. Regardless of what the Algerian government puts on the passport. They have a particular DSD which only males go through. There ARE DSDs that involve XY chromosomes and not going through male puberty, but its extremely clear that Khalef has done so. (Also very much presents self as being male on social media etc, if that's of any relevance).

Do you not understand why we had to have sex-segregated sports, and why it's both unsafe and unfair to female competitors to be disadvantaged against opponents in this way? Why don't you care about them?

A man with Klinfelters has a penis and testicles and would never be mistaken for female at birth.

They are often infertile, sometimes have some breast tissue (as is common in many xy males), may have wider hips than usual.

They're male though. They identify as men and aren't "between" anything.

SDS is Shwachman Diamond Syndrome which is a condition related to bone marrow???

If you mean DSD... people still have definitive XX or XY chromosomes.
even if they have something like klinefelters syndrome...They have a clear sex... in this case male XY. www.nhs.uk/conditions/klinefelters-syndrome

And yes, it IS annoying when people pretend to be experts.

But generic [sic] is not only deciding factor to decide one's sex. I've posted enough on the other thread, and despite it written black and white, posters continued to insist she is male because of the Y chromosome.

Exactly @vivainsomnia

At what point DO we call such people male?!

that’s an excellent question, and the answer is often (not always) ambiguous and a matter of clinical judgement at any given time.

///

So in the meantime biology women get screwed over. Seems fair

There has clearly been a huge failure by the IOC on this issue. I seems fairly clear that these athletes should not have been eligible for this category.

Having said that, I am really uncomfortable with people (on no evidence whatsoever) stating that these athletes are “men with penises”.

There used to be a poster on FWR years ago (when FWR a somewhat different place) who was a woman with a DSD and she wrote really brilliantly in response to people continually pulling people with DSDs into the trans debate. I don’t know if she’s still around, but how she wrote about the often painful and distressing medical histories of people with DSDs not being about identity politics has always stuck with me. I hope she is doing well, wherever she is.

I don’t think these athletes should be competing in the women’s category, but nor do I think they deserve the vitriol being thrown at them. The speculation about exactly which medical condition they may have is really prurient. Their intimate medical history is their own. I think it’s awful that the IOC’s fuck up has resulted in this. What a sad, sorry state of affairs.

Emma Hilton says male = XY and an androgen response.

CAIS and Swyer is XY without an androgen response so they are XY women (or potential males) and Swyer women can give birth although would need an egg donor. As far as I know, she has no issue with them competing in women’s sports as there is no male advantage.

There has been at least one known case of a someone with XY chromosomes getting pregnant naturally, I don't see how they could be considered a man.

None of the boxers in the women’s category have had testosterone levels checked by the ioc (if you believe otherwise please state your source).

Anti-doping testing has been mandatory since 1968. Boxing athletes are subject to testing as much as any other sport. And one of the things tested for is testosterone. Why do you thing none of the boxers in the women’s category have been tested for doping?