to say women don't have XY chromosomes?

[taylorswift1989]

Seeing a lot of posts on social media with people admitting they were "wrong" to call Imane Khelif a man, and that they now understand "she's a woman with XY chromosomes."

Am I going insane? A person with XY chromosomes is male! (Regardless of how they identify, of course.) Why are people saying stuff that is obviously nonsensical? Are people really that ignorant of basic biological facts?

Members of the male sex (XY) can have androgen insensitivity syndrome, a DSD which means their genitals don't develop as most boys' do.

Instead the baby may have what looks like female characteristics, possibly including a very short vagina but without uterus or ovaries, because the person is not female.

They may have internal undescended testes instead.

Some, and it may be down to luck, can be indistinguishable from girls, others appear more ambiguous - and more advantaged.

If you've been told all your life you're a girl, believed it, content with it, I can't imagine what learning the truth must be like.

I wonder how many female athletes are actually XY - but simply pass better?

Can people please remember that women with Swyer do not have internal testes flooding their bodies with testosterone at puberty, are not masculinised, have no advantage over other women in sport and would not be banned from competing by any governing body.

These atheletes do not have Swyer (or CAIS in case anyone's planning pulling another non-masculinising XY DSD out the bag).

He could whip his wanger out and piss all over his next opponent and there are some who'd still insist he's a lady.

It is possible to be born male -XY- with DSD and as a result of complex hormone problems it be difficult to identify sex at birth. All XYs are genetically male but faults in expression of some genes mean that they do not develop into easily identifiable male individuals.
It’s all a matter of degrees of variation.

But to the same extent all XX are female.
Interestingly in 46XX male syndrome, development can produce normal male development & puberty ( although there can be micro penis/hyperspadia) but essentially the newborn will be identified as male at birth, but they will be infertile despite all this.
It would be interesting if a male with 46XX syndrome would be eligible to compete as a women based on genetic testing.

So how do we define this very small percentage of athletes who may not fit into the simple boxes of XY-male and XX -female?

Firstly genetic testing, then determining whether a female presenting athlete has gone through a male puberty, because this is where the whole difference lies. I do think that it is unfare on an athlete that despite being “female” they are unable to compete due to a very rare genetic hiccup. But equally it is unfair on competitors if this fault gives them an advantage.

We have no idea, historically, how many DSD athletes have competed and been successful. As someone has already pointed out for a rare condition it seems to be quite a common problem in women’s sport. I think that the governing bodies of all sport are responsible for the safety of the athletes they represent and need a well defined pathway to avoid serious injury and potential litigation going forward.

Many governing bodies only define women’s competitive sport, that is to say you can only compete in women’s event if you are a woman. Men’s sports are often open events so women can compete in these events, however, elite women are unlikely to compete in elite open events for obvious reasons.
It is good to see mixed events in some team sports, swimming being one of them. They used to be considered Mickey Mouse events but are now accepted as legitimate competition.

Exactly this! XX XY was the simplified version taught in year 7 science and people are here thinking they have superior knowledge of chromosomes based on recalling some early science lessons.

nor do I think they deserve the vitriol being thrown at them.

They did make a choice to compete though, in full knowledge they had an unfair advantage, and in a sport where it's dangerous to do so. So they need to be held accountable for that, I think. I imagine if you follow the money there will be other people who have profited from steering these people into competitive sport and they need to be held accountable too.

They won't have just found out they are male yesterday. They still make the choice to step into the ring knowing they are male, have advantage and pose a risk to young women.

There are examples from the distant past where athletes discovering they are male have retired and handed medals/records back showing moral courage in adversity.

So the poor, hard done by athletes doesn't wash at this point. They made a choice and not a moral one.

Firstly, I'm genuinely sickened by some of the comments on this thread, we know so little, nothing has been made public, experts are reviewing this so those who 'know' her results are bullshitters

IOC has cut ties with the boxing league who did the tests because of corruption and she was only kicked out of the competition half way through after beating a russian boxer when the competition is run by a friend of putin and sponsored by russian companies. However that is conjecture and theory.

What is important is can all these TERFs who proudly proclaim 'sex isnt complicated penis = male, vagina = female' admit at least that it is more complex. She was born female, assigned female, socialised female, has a female passport.

The boxer has been beaten by other women multiple times in the past. Are we going to kick out th Chinese basketball player who is 7ft5 and clearly has atypical growth hormones giving her a vastly unfair advantage? Or michael phelps for abnormal wingspan?

This poor woman.

The main people putting DSD athletes into the "trans debate" appear to be TRAs though. I mean, make your bloody mind up.

Most of us here interested in the safety and rights of WOMEN (including to safety and fairness in sport) are simply concerned about MALES. This is a debate about women's rights to safety and fairness. And I'm afraid biology is a crucial factor in both. Sport is one area where it really, really matters. Either you care about fair competition and safety or you don't. It's physical, not what's on your passport, and there are reasons for that.

But if we accept the IBA statement that their testosterone levels were not checked or are within normal limits but that they are not XX athletes then it IS possible they have Swyer syndrome so XY but didn’t go through male puberty?

I am very confused about when we should take the IBA statement at face value and when we shouldn’t.

They would be identified by the sry gene that is (very unusually) present on their x chromosome, the presence of which, and the affect of same on their body, would be the reason that they'd been identified for further testing.

More likely though, they'd be competing in male sport as they'd have always identified as male.

Children with ambiguous genitals born in societies with good obstetric care are these days picked up at birth and their DSD will be identified. The reason why these athletes tend to come from under-developed countries is because they may not have had any medical intervention in their birth and their sex is simply registered by a family member who decides if they don’t look like boys then they must be girls. A few DSDs don’t become apparent until puberty but at that point become clear.

That's your assumption, though. I love how you think you're far more intelligent than all the rest of us plebs who aren't capable of understanding this. It's the old "high school science" argument again.

What is the reason we segregate sports by sex again? And what happens if someone who's gone through a male puberty competes against women? Is it fair? At what point does it become unfair? How will we test for that?

If they hadn't gone through male puberty we wouldn't be having this conversation.

You can pretend we're just talking about two female atheletes picked completely at random to be harrassed but we all know this isn't true.

No. People with Swyer syndrome don’t produce testosterone. These athletes clearly do.

Why can’t there be genetic testing as standard? Seems it would sort things out.

Its much more clear cut then as a DSD that presents and identifies as a man.
Which is why the emphasis is on genetic testing and investigation of female athletes.

“The IBA’s president reportedly told a Russia outlet at the time that both Khelif and Lin had “XY chromosomes” — a chromosomal composition most commonly seen in those assigned male at birth.”

He looks like a man and fights like a man and has XY chromosomes and the Olympic committee should have dealt with this issue years ago.

Khelif isn’t a woman.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it’s not a freaking chicken.

Save your tears for the women he's battered.

This is the IBA statement that clearly states they did not do a testosterone check.
www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-association-regarding-athletes-disqualifications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/

No one here is qualified to weigh in on a chromosome’s likelihood to enable a person’s ability to severely injure and kill another person. Any of the women boxers competing today could be more likely to severely injure based of their skill, power and strength. No one here knows where Imane Khelif ranks on that ability and no one here knows how much her XY chromosome gives her that ability.

An XY chromosome, in this highly specialised case, is a small percentage of the full story.

“Firstly, I'm genuinely sickened by some of the comments on this thread, we know so little, nothing has been made public, experts are reviewing this so those who 'know' her results are bullshitters”

“She was born female, assigned female, socialised female, has a female passport.”

🤔

Think you managed the full house there.

Russia!
TERFS!
A woman won a fight!
Some people are Very Tall!
Michael Phelps!

The issue of DSDs competing in female sporting categories is one of biological ambiguity and has nothing to do with the trans issue. One relates to gender presentation only; the other is biological and medical. Those with DSDs have asked that their medical circumstances not be politised in this way.

Nonetheless, whilst these issues are clearly separate, those wishing to compete in high-end sports know the rules of engagement and should be expected - or made - to play fair. In these cases the athletes concerned had a clear biological advantage and the female competitors had to pull out over fears for their own safety.

The IOC are not only failing women with a view to fair competition but are very probably putting their lives at risk. And it's always women's sport at the centre of controversy about failings in fair competition.

The boxer has been beaten by other women multiple times in the past.

My definitely male DH would be thrashed in the boxing ring by any trained female boxer including those just competing at club level. It means he is a crap boxer not that he is female.