to say women don't have XY chromosomes?

[taylorswift1989]

Seeing a lot of posts on social media with people admitting they were "wrong" to call Imane Khelif a man, and that they now understand "she's a woman with XY chromosomes."

Am I going insane? A person with XY chromosomes is male! (Regardless of how they identify, of course.) Why are people saying stuff that is obviously nonsensical? Are people really that ignorant of basic biological facts?

What infuriates me is the rush from some posters to defend the ‘poor woman who didn’t realise she was a bloke with a bloke’s advantages until her tests over two years ago’, while completely disregarding the poor women who are having o fight people with all the advantages male puberty brings- freedom from training around periods, longer arms, lung capacity, oxygenation and a massive increase in strength among others.

Yes, yes. Let’s be nice to the people who have chosen to punch women competitively.

Yes, but I don’t think we’re talking about CAIS or Swyer in this case, although it isn’t clear.

the most sensible thing I’ve seen (from Jon Pike) is we need to return to cheek swabbing to determine XX/XY, but use it as a screen, not a conclusive test in itself. If XX no issue, on you go into the female category. If XY, then further testing is required.

I think the people saying they were wrong on social media presumed she was trans before with all the fuss, and now understand that the issue is much more complicated.
I refer to her as a woman knowing that she has grown up as one, but accept that she may be considered dangerous in a boxing ring.

Both these athletes knew at puberty that they were not like the other girls.

Women with DSDs and abnormal levels of hormones tend not to be well enough to compete at a world class level.

It is categorically not Klinfelters which is a condition where an XXY man develops a normal male body with penis and external testicles and would have been identified as male at birth.

Being born with the absence of a visible penis/testes does not equate to "being born with a vagina" hence the term "DSD". And being "raised as a woman" is completely irrelevant.

Well in those (vanishingly rare) cases, I'd say male with a DSD and female with a DSD. I think how the individual presents and lives and prefers to be seen would determine whether I'd refer to them as a man or a woman socially speaking. But scientifically it's clear that they are male and female respectively. And sports has to go by science, in order that there's a level playing field.

The women’s boxing finals is going to be these two blokes against each other isn’t it. Sigh. What a sad day for women.

That may not be enough either. There are some powerful invested parties involved here who don’t care for women. Even the IOC pointed out in one of their earlier briefings the boxing debate involved “real people” as if women didn’t count.

Personally I do not agree with / support sex testing in sports.

However, what you suggest here is at least compatible with science/ biology and therefore worthy of consideration and respect as a policy position, (unlike much of the nonsense posted on this thread).

But scientifically it's clear that they are male and female respectively

no the science isn’t clear. Science is almost always complicated and rarely definitive when it comes to human physiology.

Why do you not support it?

No it won’t be, they’re in 2 different weight classes. So potentially can steal 2 Gold medals.

Throwing random DSDs into the ring to distract from what is happening is pretty offensive.

There will be people reading this with various health conditions who will find it pretty challenging.

I don’t think they’ll be the one’s choosing to do competitive sport because their DSD gives them a massive advantage against women, though.

They are in two different weight categories.

Well, as I've said elsewhere on the thread, I've read various articles by developmental biologists and yesterday I listened to this interview with a geneticist speaking specifically on this subject, and nothing I've read or heard has indicated that this understanding is wrong.
https://unherd.com/watch-listen/are-men-boxing-against-women/

Exactly. These boxers knew at some point they were not women and still chose to compete. They cheated, the women who lost to them lost their chance at a medal through no fault of their own. Shame on the authorities for letting this happen.
It's a sad state of affairs!

Edit because I just saw they are different weight classes.

The IOC had to walk back comments made at today’s press conference which pretty much confirm that both athletes have DSDs.

I think how the individual presents and lives and prefers to be seen would determine whether I'd refer to them as a man or a woman socially speaking.

So male then…

They are men. They may have the appearance of female genitalia. But they are genetically male and will not produce female gameyes.
Various conditions may cause them not to respond to male hormones lending female appearance but they are genetically male.

And yes, I do know about sexual physiology thanks.

For the same reason as the IOC. It would expose exactly what has been going on and the lies being told.

They can't fight each other becaise they are in different weight categories and that would be deemed unsafe but......

Too many blokes would be caught out.

Yes, I do realise that. My point is, that ‘assigned’ is often a term used where there is no evidence of ambiguity.

Good explanation from Emma Hilton on Swyer here: https://x.com/fondofbeetles/status/1819697582647484898?s=61&t=cdLfM0-N9FLJM-SIPTOEPw

Personally, I don’t think a person with Swyer is male. Their genes may carry the code for “male” but the androgenisation hasn’t taken place due to issues with the SRY gene.