Genuine question re pensioner fuel payment cut

[Katypp]

Just this: How would the Labour supporters react if three weeks into a new Conservative Government, the chancellor cut the winter fuel payment to any pensioner with an income of more than £11k?
Would you think it was a reasonable thing to do or would it be considered cruel because it was the Tories implementing it, not Labour?
I would imagine Angela Raynor, Yvette Cooper and Wes Streeting would have been very vocal and worried about it.
Would the public finances argument wash if it was a Tory Government? It didn't when Cameron came into power.
What's different?

I've heard Kier Starmer Pension Harmer as well.

Would you include the £10 Christmas Bonus that people on PIP get? Or is it only one group of vulnerable people who you think should be targeted?

I agree that to keep it simple it has to be tied to something that already exists, bur they've chosen Pension Credit which I think is far too low a bar. The personal allowance is £1k or so more, which would definitley help, but I think will still leave a large number of (probably women) pesnioners being excluded.

The problem is that the next logical tax band is the higher rate one, which is just over £50k and so probably wouldn't save that much. But I think there's a relatively quick way of linking it to council tax band and age. After all, when we came out of Covid the Government / Councils very quickly got cost of living support to those in properties banded A to C. Add an age element, which doesn't sound beyond the wit of even the local councils, and that might be more reasonable. Limit it further by only applying to households claiming teh single person discount. Sure, there might be some better off pensioners in small properties who will benefit when they wouldn't otherwise, but I'd rather than that swathes of people in fuel poverty as a result of Labour's policy.

The problem is that we have limited resources and every public service needs more at the moment. We already give pensioners more than double the basic income that we assess is necessary to live for those on uc. We need to make choices - if we spend £1.5billion giving extra to pensioners (many of whom are extremely wealthy) then we have to cut something else.

There are fairly regular threads about means testing various pensioner benefits such as the winter fuel allowance, and while it's far from unanimous, there's often decent support for the idea. And those threads of course would have been during the Tory government.

Many more don't, and means testing it is more fair. The money then goes to people who need it.

The thing is that the more complexity you add to the process, the less it saves.

I have just crunched the numbers for a single pensioner receiving £11440 per annum. They would get Pension credit. Therefore still get fuel allowance.

This will be me in 6 yrs btw.

Wow! You think pensioners should be penalised for being elderly and needing more services? People can't help old, there's nothing we can do about it.

I don't know how old you but life goes so quick and you'll find one day that you're that elderly person. I hope that the younger generation then have more compassion than you do.

Further more - and I agree with what you have posted - someone on £11,290 and receives pension credit of £10 which entitles them to all the freebies whereas a pension on £11,310 will receive none of the freebies that amount to about £3k per annum.
Can the people saying that this move is justified to help the poorer pensioners see the anomally.

Some posters are also being deluded that they think the WFA is riches - it is £200 per year PER HOUSEHOLD NOT PER PENSIONER and as such is of particular help to single 'female' pensioners who are already having to cut things to the bone because of the frozen tax allowance and no gold plated pensions.

As a women's website - I would have expected more concern for those that just miss out - they have already lost the free over 75 TV licence.

I don't think that would mean you get the 'freebies' - it is the guaranteed part of pension credit that matters.

It should never have been paid out in the first place. Energy companies made record profits in the aftermath of the price increases. These payments of untested free money to pensioners are effectively a massive subsidy to fossil fuel companies. Windfall tax the absolute hell out of fossil fuel firms. Or even make it illegal to profit at all from fossil fuels. Cover costs ? Fine. Profit / Dividends / Bonuses ? MASSIVE Nope.

The pensioner cannot work - the single person on UC should be out there working unless disabled or sick.

The problem is they never taper, just put in cut offs and cause great harm to those on the threshold. I’ve suffered with my pension date being pushed back. Can’t access my NHS pension 5-7 years later than those just a few months more service than me, for example. Or the child benefit which was paid to joint incomes on twice the pay of those single income claimants who lost out.

Our pensioners hoard a lot of wealth and have done very well the last 2 decades, from being the poorest to wealthiest in society. The pendulum clearly needs to tip the other way. But needs some nuance to avoid harm to those on the edge or making work not seem to pay.

Part of the problem is the pensioners have as a group cheered on the Tories decimating support to children and families, while taking and taking. Not to mention the harm that their voting in Brexit caused. So you can kinda see why the sympathies are not there when the axe swings at their benefits.

Perfectly sensible. Millions don’t need it. My mum gives hers to a cat charity 🙄

If she has money under the mattress that she has not declared to pension credit and it is a significant amount then she is commiting benefit fraud. I have just had the same argument with a friend of mine whose inlaws were stashing cash around the house whilst claiming significant amounts of pension credit.

Surely setting the Christmas “bonus” at £10 is a piss take in itself. Tell me what use a tenner is nowadays

Think my dad used to spend his in the betting shop

Further unless you are already retired before 2016 - this benefit is not available to you. Sorry to disappoint

I couldn't agree more.

I am sure a lot of that goes on. Back in the day - people on pension credit were not reassessed on their income etc - reliance was placed on them notified the powers that be if their income went down!

There are still a lot on assessed income periods who don't have to notify PC service of increased. I had one client a few months ago whose savings had built up to 40k with all his benefits building up and he was under no obligation to inform anyone ? crazy .

How would the Labour supporters react if three weeks into a new Conservative Government, the chancellor cut the winter fuel payment to any pensioner with an income of more than £11k?

This is a moot point because I don't believe that a Conservative Government would do this. Not out of any genuine concern about fuel poverty but because they wouldn't want to alienate a group of people who are much more likely to vote for them. Had the Tories won the election they would continue to do what they have done for the last 14 years, protect universal benefits for pensioners and resist calls to increase taxes on the ultra-wealthy/corporations, whilst implementing policies that push more and more children into poverty. Children can't vote.

I am broadly in support the the policy, and would be whoever brought it in. Although I can see why it feels unfair, means testing is expensive and ultimately the aim of the policy is to save money. This government has inherited a mess. In addition to an urgent need to address the shameful levels of child poverty in this country, our NHS and social care services (which pensioners are more likely to need) desperately need proper investment. Savings have got to be made somewhere and whoever loses out is unlikely to be happy about it.

I would still be in favor of it. I have said that this needed to go for ages, and I do do my best not to be partisan. I can name lots of things that the Tories did that I supported - strong net Zero efforts for most of the 14 years, a lot of the educational reforms, full-expensing….

No Labour voters want benefits cutting, but most centrists recognise the books must be balanced. The Tories deliberately skewed the effect of that though onto working age families with children, and those on disability benefits, while gilding the lilly for pensioners. It was pork barrel at its worst because pensioners were the only demographic that reliably voted Conservative. It was also short sighted politically because the Conservative Party had alienated every demographic under the age of 65. Which is one of the reasons they lost so badly at the election.