Genuine question re pensioner fuel payment cut

[Katypp]

Just this: How would the Labour supporters react if three weeks into a new Conservative Government, the chancellor cut the winter fuel payment to any pensioner with an income of more than £11k?
Would you think it was a reasonable thing to do or would it be considered cruel because it was the Tories implementing it, not Labour?
I would imagine Angela Raynor, Yvette Cooper and Wes Streeting would have been very vocal and worried about it.
Would the public finances argument wash if it was a Tory Government? It didn't when Cameron came into power.
What's different?

An elderly person struggling to heat their home will likely be on pension credits and therefore unaffected. They will still receive the winter fuel allowance.

I didn't vote Labour but I think its a good idea
Tories would never dare do anything that might affect over 65's as it was their core demographic and Labour now will have to make decisions that will be unpopular due to 14 years of bad management so good luck to them

A single working age person on uc would be getting less than that yet no winter fuel payment. Is that ok?

Much like when the Tories cut child benefits to certain households, once again this has been implemented in a clumsy and lazy way.

Too often the cut off is far too low.

On the subject of bus passes, we need to be doing more to encourage use of public transport. Unfortunately though these passes are often useless outside of London and some larger cities as services are so poor.

Part of the issue is many poorer pensioners are elgible for pension credit and other help but do not claim.

I think you get cold winter payments if you're on UC, but you cannot compare a young fit person to an elderly person. They're probably still living at home or maybe in a house share. They won't feel the cold like an elderly person, they'll be more active. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

A Christmas bonus of £10? 2 cups of coffee? Outrageous, take it away immediately.

The point is that £11,300 is the maximum income you can have and still be entitled to a little* *pension credit, which its also a gateway benefit to other benefits.

If you have income >£11,400 you are not entitled to pension credit, and therefore not entitled to the winter fuel allowance. There will be a bunch of older pensioners, probably disproportionately women (who live longer), who will be living in their own home (no entitlement to rent support) and surving on a widow's pension (typically 50% of their husbands) plus a bit of state pension who may only have an income of £12k or a little more a year who will really feel this. The threshold is too low - it should at least be aligned to the equivalent of National Living Wage - £24k ish

Well let's hope they all receive the help to claim and the Government realise what a stupid decision it was and should have means tested it.

I .don't object to it, I will lose it and that's OK, but I don't think £11k should be the limit, I know the argument will be that it is easy to say only if on pension credit and setting it at a more reasonable level would involve lots of work but I don't think that is a good reason to be unfair.

I agree with means testing but not at 11k a year. Yes some may get disability on top but many don’t. After council tax, gas, electricity, building insurance, content insurance, a phone, internet, water and food there isn’t much left from £917 (£211 a week).

Even those who manage may be pushed into debt when the washer breaks or you need a cab to hospital or a new winter coat or their guttering needs repairing.

I would like to see a politician live on this income for 5 years. I could do it easily for a year or two with my new washer, dishwasher, tv, etc. but when bits and pieces start breaking and needing repair or replacing where does that money come from?

Once again poorer women are affected.

Sorry 11500 would be 222 a week

I’m one of them. It was completely unnecessary. Hopefully the triple lock will go and changes will be made to taxation on unearned income too. I want properly funded public services and they have to be paid for.

No they won't. The full state pension is just over £221 a week. A pensioner receiving that will still have to pay other household bills, water, council tax, food, buildings and contents insurance, clothing, phone bill, house repairs if they own their own house as well as heating. They won't qualify for any help.

pension credit will bring your weekly income to about £218 per week I think so very close to the full state pension. However I suspect once you are on pension credit it will be the gateway to other benefits like the winter fuel allowance which will actually make you better off than people who have 35 years plus of NI contributions.
This is going to hit single pensioners, many of whom will be women very hard. If there are two of you, you can probably live a basic but ok life on 2 full state pensions if no mortgage or rent.

if you are on your own with just the state pension you are going to struggle.

private sector workers who have been in low paid work all their lives do not have the valuable public sector pensions to top up the state pension.

For me it’s too much of a precipice and some allowance should be made for single pensioners on the basic state pension with savings below a certain level.

As far I had understood it, the threshold is only set so low because setting it higher would be too costly to implement and oversee and therefore make no real money.

If there are more and more old people and fewer young, and more and more old people living in expensive large accommodation, this kind of thing would incentivise downsizing. So that must be part of this as well. Never mind there is nowhere to move to - although they are planning on addressing that, except with a time lag as house building takes time.

If we want to save the NHS, then benefits for all that are not just for the poorest have to go. Except where we need an incentive. Let’s say we currently need young people to be able to afford childcare.

A pensioner can't claim PIP only Attendance Allowance which is lower. Apparently disabilities are cheaper when you are old.

In exactly the same way as I have to this. That I'm broadly supportive as it was beyond ridiculous that wealthy people recieved it. However I would have preferred a genuine means test to have been applied rather than the arbitrary cut off of not being on a passport benefit. SRP is not a lot of money if that's all you get and while it can take you a few pence over the PC threshold, it could still be a struggle without the WFP. I accept a full application process and means test would be expensive and difficult to implement though. So I think my preference would be to set the income eligibility cut off at a higher level after taking advice from anti poverty groups as to what that should be. There's so much data that could have informed this to ensure those who needed it didn't go without while also not wasting money where it wasn't required.

I am a supporter of the withdrawal of the winter fuel allowance, even though I used to get it. I prefer the money to be targeted at those who really need the financial support. It seems folly to me for the £200 to go to all pensioners as many are wealthy and it just means a free meal out of couple of bottles of champagne!

For you maybe. What about pensioners who are struggling? What about the £10 Christmas bonus, would you like to see that go as well? I thought it was the Tories who were supposed to be the "nasty party", seems like Labour are going after the vulnerable too.

Those with the full basic pension have worked or cared for someone long enough to get the full pension. They have done enough.

I’m not a Labour supporter so I can’t speak for how they would react if it was the Tories who cut this payment to pensioners.

I do support means testing of pretty much all public payments and services, however, so I was surprised when this was announced by a Labour government (albeit I would echo other posters in that perhaps the cut off is too low and will push some pensioners into poverty and/or ill health if they can’t afford to heat their homes).

Definitely the Christmas bonus should go, that would generate £110 million.

It's cheaper to do it this way rather than a proper means testing which would end up costing much of the expected savings although that would have been much fairer.

Axing the benefit from any pensioners paying higher rate tax would have been better.

The cost of bureaucracy is one of the reasons prescriptions are free in Wales. Nothing to do with socialist values and everything to do with the cost of collecting the payment charges. So many in Wales qualify for free prescriptions (which is shocking in itself) that it's cheaper to not charge the much smaller proportion who would normally pay.

And yes if the Tories had done it they would have been pilloried. Labour get away with a lot that the Tories don't. Taxing of pension investments has seriously reduced the value of people's private pensions and it was Labour who introduced University fees.

Not if they are eligible for the full state pension at £221.20 a week.

So £11502.4 a year.