Genuine question re pensioner fuel payment cut

[Katypp]

Just this: How would the Labour supporters react if three weeks into a new Conservative Government, the chancellor cut the winter fuel payment to any pensioner with an income of more than £11k?
Would you think it was a reasonable thing to do or would it be considered cruel because it was the Tories implementing it, not Labour?
I would imagine Angela Raynor, Yvette Cooper and Wes Streeting would have been very vocal and worried about it.
Would the public finances argument wash if it was a Tory Government? It didn't when Cameron came into power.
What's different?

I know a family locally, none of whom has worked for generations. It's a lifestyle choice. I believe the government is rightly cracking down on this.

Anecdote isn't data. What about the stinking rich tax evaders/public contract cheats who steal far, far more public money, as a matter of real stats?

If the government is cracking down on this, then there must be data on these types of families. Where is it?
Anecdotes don't count.

The elderly are no poorer these days than working age people.

Any help needs to be means tested and focussed on those who actually need it most. My elderly (well off) parents have been giving their payment to my key worker sibling for years and i know many comfortably off pensioners doing similar, it was never an effective benefit.

This is what people are saying, but the Government have made the cut off point too low. Many pensioners who only receive state pension will be really struggling this winter.

It was effective for elderly not well off people.

I think I would agree with this.
There are elderly people who can't afford to heat their home, the same as there are working-age people who can't.
There are well-off pensioners in the same way as there are well-off younger people.
Given the disparity of circumstances lumped under the term pensioners, it seems a bit silly to treat them all the same.
Younger people are not allowed to claim benefits because they don't want to spend their savings, so I would say pensioners should not be allowed to do this either.
Everyone should be entitled to a state pension though - otherwise some would not make any arrangements otherwise so they don't lose out, and it is manifestly unfair to only pay this to people who have either not worked or not worked enough.

I agree with this but the bar was set too low for the winter fuel allowance. They're not means testing it, they're penalising those people who are on a low pension income but aren't eligible for pension credit. And they need to apply it to other schemes. It's ludicrous that primary school aged children from wealthy families get free school meals.

I didn't.
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There's a reason labour has only been in power for a third of the last century.
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They're utterly useless“

You’ve, presumably, lived through the past 14 years in the UK? Yet say Labour is utterly useless?

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

They're using an existing system to means test - qualification for Pension Credit is demonstrating they do not have the means to meet the costs. Makes it cheaper and more efficient to administer, thus freeing up resources in both the administration and the cost/manpower of processing.

Something useful from the tories, I guess. Suppose some just never wanted to believe that it would be used on other benefits than UC.

What about the people who just miss pension credit and end up much worse off. The system should be fair.

Everyone thinks the system should be fair. And everyone thinks it should be simple. But these two are mutually incompatible. A perfectly fair system would take everyone's circumstances into account, but be too unwieldy to work. A perfectly simple system would be easy to operate but would be manifestly unfair to many.

I don't think it's helpful to just say that the system should be fair without saying where you would draw the line, and why.

In theory the free school meals pupils are getting when they’re in wealthy families, are being paid for by their parents’ taxes. It’s cashback to them.

But you could apply that argument to winter fuel allowance? Or any benefit really.

I could! Anyone could!

I'd make the cut off higher than being entitled to pension credit. Some people who aren't entitled to a full pension will be better off than people who are, that is crazy in my view.

I've worked in HR for many years, this sort of thing makes people decide they don't want to plan for their future, don't want to save, reject the offer of a work based pension because it isn't worth it. I know that is true as I've had the conversations e.g. the boss is offering you money every month on top of what you earn so you will have a decent pension. Reply, not worth it as they will keep me if I have nothing. They were right weren't they so instead of people being self sufficient they rely on the tax payer. Great result.

Exactly. Remember how Sunak excluded 3 million self employed/casuals/freelancers from the covid support. He claimed it was "too hard" to have anything other than simplistic criteria/cut offs, despite them being illogical and unfair. The default excuse back then, too, was that there was universal credit for those who were excluded - so basically people who had savings, or a working partner earning too much, etc were doubly excluded as they couldn't claim UC as the "backup" plan either.