To think the Khelif issue is now raising more big questions in sport

[FishersGate]

Biological men should not be fighting women how is this even happening ?? Two 'women' failed eligibility tests by the IBA. Yet the IOC deem them suitable it's mind boggling

The IBA has been clear about this. This was the result of their tests that they could publicly release. I doubt that they can release any more details.

The IOC has famously declared that this athlete is 'female' because that is what is in their passport. Do you understand that in many countries male people can change their passports? Plus in many countries a male wrongly observed as a new born as having ambiguous genitals can be wrongly registered as a female?

This makes using someone's passport as some kind of definitive source of information about a person's sex rather inaccurate, wouldn't you say?

Again, this has been discussed on this thread widely. I suggest you read the thread!

It’s also well known that various news outlets obtain their facts from news agencies and report accordingly. I also take this to mean that your belief she’s male has come from the Lancet or similar?

If the IOC had any integrity over the womens/female catagories, Caster Semenya would not have been allowed to compete in the famale catagories. We know (from the Court Case) that CS has a DSD called 46XY 5ARD and you can only have this if you are a biological male.

The IOC have been completely and purposefully mendacious about CS sex. They have proven by their own words and actions that they cannot be trused on this issue and we know that CS is not the only male athlete competing as a 'female'.

I mean how could they not with the top reporting from them such as sheep take over town centre (my town no less), look whose been in court a weekly segment, and no sand to be seen on sunny day in Barry Island as it's so tightly packed.

The passport was one of the reasons not the sole reason given by the IOC. She was assigned female at birth and for them that’s enough. I’m not their policymaker btw

It comes from the IBA statement who tested these athletes. This has been the basis of these athletes being excluded from competing in the world boxing federation's competitions. If the IBA was releasing false information, do you think that the information would still be available on their website, or do you think that a legal letter claiming that the information was false would have resulted in the information being publicly retracted?

I know which one I would place confidence in. I doubt that any agency would allow the IBA to continue to publish false information.

The tests and the outcomes were not appealed by either athlete.

How can the information come from the lancet?? FFS. No one knows what exact male medical condition this athlete has to deal with. But we DO know that they have XY chromosomes AND that they process testosterone that has been found, by testing done by the IBA, to have physical advantage over female athletes.

Perhaps, read the thread.

That's Swyer syndrome and it doesn't negate the fact that ambiguous genitals from a male line DSD (of which Swyer syndrome is only one) aren't female genitals. People with Swyer syndrome do not go through puberty naturally and they certainly don't go through male puberty. These boxers do not have Swyer syndrome. If they had, they'd never have such masculine physiques nor be at competitive athletic levels with a proven advantage over females.

Just so you know, saying "no it's not" isn't a rebuttal. As you are so keen not to spread misinformation, you should know that.

So are you basing all of your views on the testing done by the IBA?

Is this the article you're referring to? From Business Insider India? Did you read further than the headlines?

'Born female and identifying as a woman, she appears to have a condition known as differences of sex development (DSD). This condition would explain her XY chromosomes and higher testosterone levels — traits typically associated with male athletes.' Or perhaps that should read
'wholly associated with male athletes'.

Yes and that’s why people are questioning the IOC process

yes.

The IOC has a policy of including male people with DSDs in the sports categories for females.

SERIOUSLY, READ THE THREAD

Because the IOC has this policy, that accept males 'assigned as birth' as being eligible to participate in the female categories unless the international sporting federation for a particular sport has a policy to exclude.

Due to a unrelated issue, the IOC removed the IBA from organising the Olympic boxing competition. Therefore that left the boxing competition without the IBA policy regulating who was eligible to compete, because the IOC has ignored that policy and fallen back on its own. Which is 'inclusive', as per Budgett's announcement after the Tokyo Olympics.

The IOC stopped sex testing in the late 90s to allow this group of male athletes to compete as female athletes. This has not changed, except that in some events, male athletes have to suppress their testosterone. BECAUSE THEY ARE MALE! This excludes events which are organised, as mentioned, by world sporting organisations such as for instance, WA, FIFA, WR, UIC.

So, your 'it is good enough for you' is all fine. Except you are ill informed.

Your opinion is one that has supported the IOC to erroneously leave boxing and other sports open to male athletes creating dangerous and unfair competition for female athletes. ie Those born with a body formed around the production of large gametes, is. with ovaries, regardless of whether those gametes are produced.

FFS Read the thread, this has been discussed in depth already.

And what are you basing your information on?

Why do you believe that the IBA statement is false ?

I haven’t at any point disputed anything you’ve said there. I’ve just been pointing out she’s assigned female at birth not male.
She’s also been defeated 9 times by female opponents which would suggest there have been fair fights

It's mad. This pushing of the idea that a female can have an underdeveloped penis, Cryptorchidism and naturally high testosterone at a male level.

If someone has those things they are male.

If you took a dog to the vet and wanted him castrated and he suffered from Cryptorchidism, you would get charged for abdominal surgery which is more expensive compated to a normal castration where the testicles are located in the scrotum, but the vet would never gaslight you into believing that you male dog was somehow female.

I’ve just been pointing out she’s assigned female at birth not male.

Which nobody disputes.

To repeat what I said to you earlier.

Those things are both completely irrelevant to how sex is defined.

Sex is defined by gametes.

FFS.

Just because this male athlete was 'assigned female at birth' is irrelevant to whether they are a male person.

And stop spreading logical fallacy about competitive advantage to support false claims.

This is discussed widely in this thread.

No. Be honest at least.

You were using it as if being assigned female at birth made a person factually a 'female'. Otherwise you would have admitted that this male athlete was a male person, despite being assigned female at birth.

You posted 'It’s also well known that various news outlets obtain their facts from news agencies and report accordingly. I also take this to mean that your belief she’s male has come from the Lancet or similar?'

It is not the 'belief' this person is male. It is fact based on an international sporting federation's statement.

Their external genitalia appeared to be those of a female so Khelif was wrongly assumed to be female when born. I’ve no doubt Khelif’s DSD became apparent when older.

I concur Hell, we need a lot more honesty.

If we hadn't had all the lies, gaslighting and obvious misleading of the public, we would be able to discuss topics such as DSDs in a much more clear, logical, open and honest fashion. In many cases, it wouldn't need to be discussed at all as the situation causing the need for the discussion just wouldn't arise.

The last few years really have been an 'Endarkenment' and it has been crazy to witness in real time.

Let me put this another way.

Currently, the IOC has a policy where they devolved the acceptance of male athletes with DSDs to the international sporting federations that regulate that sport. If the IOC doesn't trust their sporting federations to conduct tests properly, and to report the results appropriately, why have they devolved these regulations to those international bodies?

Next, what other sporting federation's tests has the IOC expressed doubt over in this way?

If the IOC has not published their regulations regarding 'sex testing' with the statements that they have been making, why not? Or, don't they have one? So, therefore, hasn't the IOC been negligent to all by not having published regulations on the testing of sex? Or did they completely remove themselves from the political spotlight and let the international sporting federations deal with the political flack and by so doing, they even removed themselves from being able to demand a particular standard of testing?

So, again, if we cannot trust individual and independent sporting federations to conduct the testing to uphold their policies then perhaps there is a much greater failure here than what we have been narrowly discussing.

And his DSD was apparent when international boxing banedhim from competing as a female two years in a row.

Khelif knows what he is. He may be struggling to come to terms with it, and I sympathise, but NOT at the expense of women’s safety or the integrity of an entire women’s sport

Both these men have xy chromosomes. They both went through male puberty. They are both visibly male. Only their countries are claiming that they have dsd. Does anyone have evidence of this. I suspect this may be the new doping. Get a doctor to provide a test saying a man has dsd. He can be male and xy but this is just a way to cheat and get around drug testing.
A defective male can happily slot into the female category because as we all know to be female is to be a defective male, as germaine Greer pointed out in the past.

It seems that the way to cause inconvenience to the least number of competitors is to test the DNA. Then XY should not compete with XX in any sport or game.
It is a non invasive test.
I do not understand the reason for reluctance to use DNA.

They have both these men are xy.