Women with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome

[Tandora]

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/androgen-insensitivity-syndrome/symptoms/#:~:text=Girls%20with%20CAIS%20do%20not,make%20some%20sexual%20acts%20difficult.
Inspired by the dumpster fire of a certain thread that filled up just now -
AIBU to share some information about girls and women with CAIS. Many of these women and girls won’t learn about their variation in sex characteristics until adulthood. Some might never know and not without the assistance of modern technologies (that can test , eg, karyotype). For cases of CAIS identified at birth, most individuals are assigned/ registered/ raised female. (Yes sex can be assigned).

Anyone who could know a girl/ woman with CAIS in the real world, and tell her she is , in fact , unambiguously a boy/ man, because gametes, - well you would deserve worse than to be called a sexual fascist.

The NHS recognises the existence of girls and women with CAIS , and provides medical interventions accordingly.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/androgen-insensitivity-syndrome/symptoms/#:~:text=Girls%20with%20CAIS%20do%20not,make%20some%20sexual%20acts%20difficult.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK1429/

Yes these conditions are rare, but the more we learn about the biology of sex development , the more complex the picture becomes, as with most areas of science/ biology/ medicine .

I think this is really important information for people to read. It isn't as uncommon as people may imagine.

And of course individuals with a DSD must be treated with compassion and empathy.

But equally not be able to enter sporting competitions where their enhanced testosterone levels and male puberty gives them an unfair advantage over natal females.

Not sure posting some details about the condition really changes that.

Maybe save that for one of the many threads covering the topic?

Op posted this because of those threads. The post you quoted is relevant.

But most people have a genetic advantage one way or another.

Big feet, long legs, height.

👍🏻

Doesn’t this just back up the argument that self ID is wrong though? Because people who have the conditions described in your links have and identifiable and diagnosable medical conditions?

No thank you

Women with CAIS are not generally stronger than the average woman and clearly don't have high testosterone. The athletes competing in the Olympics aren't CAIS they have vastly elevated testosterone in comparison with females. There are many different DSDs.

... and when these differences are anywhere near significant to create different categories around them, they'll then be relevant - meanwhile it's just a gotcha attempt to obfuscate the differences between the sexes.

There is no genetic advantage that gives people anywhere near the same advantages as male does over female - that is why we have categories for women and not for people with small feet. Men and women have a 10% performance gap, there is no single athlete in the right category that is a clear 10% clear of their competitors.

Being kind is being misused here. There is a huge difference between calling people names unprompted and when forced. For example, if a child came up to me and told me I'm old - that would be rude and the parent would tell them off - if I enter the under 10s running race, it's on me if a child comes up and calls me old.

There's genetic advantage within the norms for an athlete's sex class. Going through male puberty is something far beyond that and is cheating.

But the advantage that people who have been through male puberty have is huge, c10-40% depending on the sport. That’s why we have women’s sport!

Thank you. I psychologically braced myself to open up this thread and see the replies and it is so nice to see this one up top x

Girls with CAIS don’t go through male puberty. Their bodies are insensitive to androgens.

well you would deserve worse than to be called a sexual fascist.

I'm still finding my way around certain words. What exactly is a sexual fascist ?

“Male puberty” isn’t a given. It depends on the dsd.

neither is enhanced testosterone, and some don’t have any sort of advantage.

as pp said, keep it to the other thread as this post is not relevant as you clearly don’t understand the range of effects dsd’s can have.

There is no reason to think CAIS is the case here. This is not helpful at all.

Why are you bringing CAIS into the discussion today? Khelif is an XY male with testosterone on the low end of normal for men. The discussion around XY athletes in women's categories is nothing to do with people with CAIS.

No one with XX chromosomes has any form of androgen insensitivity, this is a DSD which only affects people with XY chromosomes.

Males with complete androgen insensitivity may physically develop with a more typically female phenotype.

In everyday life they may be perceived and treated as girls/women.

There are many types of DSD. CAIS does not, by definition, result in the person undergoing male puberty and acquiring all the physical advantages of an adult male. Although people with CAIS are genetically male, their phenotype is female.

Another DSD, 46 XY 5-ARD, results in the person, who may as a child have appeared to be phenotypically female, undergoing a male puberty.

Adults with CAIS are considered to be women, for obvious reasons.

Adults with 46 XY 5-ARD are men. This is not fair, especially for people who were not identified as having a DSD in childhood, but it is a fact. They have testosterone levels way, way higher than any woman (natal female), including those with e.g. PCOS.

well you would deserve worse than to be called a sexual fascist

Oh yeah? Whats that then? Sounds threatening….

Anyway, as you’ve stated you’ve posted this because of the threads regarding two boxing competitors, what’s the relevance. Are you claiming they have CAIS? Where’s your source for that? If not, what’s this got to do with anything?

as pp said, keep it to the other thread as this post is not relevant as you clearly don’t understand the range of effects dsd’s can have.

What other thread? If you're talking about the Olympic boxers I don't think this thread is anything to do with them is it, given they don't have CAIS?

What’s your AIBU?

You no say this is a thread about another thread, and that was about male boxers with DSD in the female category, which is clearly dangerous and unfair.

What have people with CAIS got to do with that?

Why does the existence of CAIS in some women give permission (for you) to those who don’t have it to participate in competitions reserved for the other sex?

it is for me the equivalent of saying “Well I’d only weigh 56kg on Venus, therefore I’ll be going my preferred weight category?”

The advantage of weight is dealt with by having weight classes.

I wasn’t suggesting that the subjects of discussion on the last thread have CAIS, I don’t know their personal medical circumstances- is this even known/ reported?

This is general information to better inform understandings of the complexities of human sexual development, inspired by many of the really troubling posts/ claims made by posters on the previous thread.