Women with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome

[Tandora]

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/androgen-insensitivity-syndrome/symptoms/#:~:text=Girls%20with%20CAIS%20do%20not,make%20some%20sexual%20acts%20difficult.
Inspired by the dumpster fire of a certain thread that filled up just now -
AIBU to share some information about girls and women with CAIS. Many of these women and girls won’t learn about their variation in sex characteristics until adulthood. Some might never know and not without the assistance of modern technologies (that can test , eg, karyotype). For cases of CAIS identified at birth, most individuals are assigned/ registered/ raised female. (Yes sex can be assigned).

Anyone who could know a girl/ woman with CAIS in the real world, and tell her she is , in fact , unambiguously a boy/ man, because gametes, - well you would deserve worse than to be called a sexual fascist.

The NHS recognises the existence of girls and women with CAIS , and provides medical interventions accordingly.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/androgen-insensitivity-syndrome/symptoms/#:~:text=Girls%20with%20CAIS%20do%20not,make%20some%20sexual%20acts%20difficult.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK1429/

Yes these conditions are rare, but the more we learn about the biology of sex development , the more complex the picture becomes, as with most areas of science/ biology/ medicine .

They may well also be some physiological/ hormonal factors at play

Sorry what? Are you suggesting that lesbians are somehow not quite the same physically as straight women? Really? You've stooped that low?

Well .... There chromosomes and theirs abnormal hormone levels.

Given we drug test to prevent drug abuse (and prevent harms to athletes) and unfair competition anyway, I don't see why this is controversial.

All we'd see is a deliberate attempt to game the system. Which would destroy women's sport completely. The only ones with medal hopes would be the ones with this medical condition.

If we continue to allow them to compete with female competitors we risk serious injury to female competitors too. But somehow you seem to think this is fine as long as we 'dont discriminate'. Harm is fine. 'Discrimination' isn't.

Yes we get it. Women are collateral damage and not worthy of protection.

Can you hear just how fucked up this is?

Well, they also rolled out the old trope that “black men are better than white men at sport” so it’s not too surprising that there is homophobia in addition to racism.

These “I see you” , “I see what you are doing” posts are really tiresome. Participate in the substantive debate , respond to my points of argument , or don’t, let’s have a meaningful , productive dialogue.

Of course there are genetic differences in sport .
Elite athletes have generally won the genetic lottery physically and have the temperament to capitalise on it with insane training. That's why they are elite athletes and the rest of us aren't.

Genetic differences however are NOT the same as a sex differences.
Sex differences give men an advantage over women.

You are trying to conflate different things

No, they get no advantage from the testosterone secretion because their body is unable to use it (that's the androgen insensitivity which in this case is complete).

People with PAIS (partial insensitivity) do have some advantage.

I absolutely did not say that 😂. Some of you appear to have some trouble with black and white reasoning . I said that black men are overrepresented in male sport and lesbian women are over represented in female sports. That’s an empirical trend. Sorry if it offends you!

Yes, I do have issue with your “black and white” reasoning.

The suggestion that black men, as a group, have a genetic advantage over white men has long been debunked as racist scaremongering.

Hear, hear. Thank goodness there are people with the courage to stand up and defend the right of men to beat women to a pulp and then claim the medals that were intended for those women. You are a beacon of hope in a cruel, cruel world that doesn’t always condone male violence against women as blatantly as it could.

Gender Test* is what the International Boxing Association called the sex testing that both boxers failed.

The IBA is quiet in the specifics for privacy reasons but here is their statement. Note competitive advantage.

Point to note, the athletes did not undergo a testosterone examination but were subject to a separate and recognized test, whereby the specifics remain confidential. This test conclusively indicated that both athletes did not meet the required necessary eligibility criteria and were found to have competitive advantages over other female competitors.

*As a feminist I’d say there is no test for gender as that is a set of stereotypes imposed upon people, not anything innate to them, but people lazily conflate sex and gender quite a lot.

🩷

There we go. No details what this test is. There is no scientific basis for a singular , objective, test to determine someone’s gender

Karyotype does determine your sex category.

DSD's are not identities, they are medical conditions, some of which can have significant health implications for the person affected. If you weren't so determined to exploit DSD's in your "sex is a spectrum" argument, which ultimately leads to men dominating womens sport, you might have researched more than CAIS and have some genuine compassion for people with other types of DSD.

You trivialise the meaning of the term "human rights" when you apply it to the right to compete in the sports team/category of your choosing at elite level. You are being ridiculous.

That would be "determining their sex". Gender is irrelevant to sporting performance.

Sex however is relevant.
As you have been told many times, male puberty , which happens to men not women, causes irreversible physical development of a male body, which confers sporting advantage.

How many times?

I said that black men are overrepresented in male sport and lesbian women are over represented in female sports. That’s an empirical trend. Sorry if it offends you!

No. You didn't just state the empirical trend - you suggested there may be a physiological reason why more lesbians do sport:

ditalini
Jesus! That's desperate!

Actually, I'd love there to be research to investigate why lesbian girls are more likely than heterosexual girls to continue with sport as they grow. It's a much healthier way to be, both physically and mentally.

I'm guessing it's a social and community thing but you tell yourself it's in the genes if it makes you happy 😂

Your response (my bold): I’ve no doubt there is a huge social, community element. They may well also be some physiological/ hormonal factors at play. As with all differences it’s likely to be a complex mix of environmental, social, potentially physiological factors.

See also your comment on the physiology of black sports people:
Black men are overrepresented in many male sports. Do they have an unfair advantage because of their physiology / genetics?

What’s this about lesbians? Has there been a survey conducted on our Olympic team and others to show an ‘over representation’ of lesbians?

what a load of nonsense!

Yep,it's a dirty job but someone had to do it.

I have no idea who you are arguing with but it’s not me. I didn’t say, nor do I believe , black men have a “genetic advantage” over white men in sport (nor would I give a flaming toss if they did but that’s by the by). I said black people are over-represented in sports which they are. in the same way, women with sex variations are over represented in female sports- this doesnt mean they have a “genetic advantage”. pP on this thread are suggesting as if one automatically implies the other.

Anyway there’s no point in defending myself against fabricated points of argument.

So do please tell us @Tandora

What do you believe are the “physiological/ hormonal factors at play” that make lesbians different?

50% of people have the genetic advantage of having testes which produce large quantities of testosterone, thus vastly improving sporting performance.

That's the main reason why we have separate categories for male and female athletes.

People with Swyer syndrome are genetically male but have a female phenotype, like people with CAIS. They are considered women, for obvious reasons.

C’mon this isn’t difficult.

I didn’t say, nor do I believe , black men have a “genetic advantage” over white men in sport

We can read. You said:
Black men are overrepresented in many male sports. Do they have an unfair advantage because of their physiology / genetics

This thread is nuts

yes , I said with regard to lesbian women in female sport ,

”I’ve no doubt there is a huge social, community element. They may well also be some physiological/ hormonal factors at play. As with all differences it’s likely to be a complex mix of environmental, social, potentially physiological factors”.

I stand by that. That doesn’t mean I think gay women are physiologically diff to straight women, but there is research that shows that women in sport have higher levels of testosterone. There is also some reaearxh that suggests that lesbian women may generally on average have higher levels of testosterone than straight women (eg . www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306453016301846#:~:text=Sex%20hormone%20differences%20among%20diverse,lesbian%2Fbisexual%20than%20heterosexual%20women.) This is obviously massively complex and I certainly am not claiming to know the facts/ have the answers here!!!! But it’s not a ludicrous or homophobic proposition, although I know you want to make it out to be.

People who have or who have ever had functional testes are men. People who have or who have ever had functional ovaries are women.

The existence of people with DSDs, who will additionally fall into either male or female category, does not negate this.

Where’s the hypocrisy ?