Women with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome

[Tandora]

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/androgen-insensitivity-syndrome/symptoms/#:~:text=Girls%20with%20CAIS%20do%20not,make%20some%20sexual%20acts%20difficult.
Inspired by the dumpster fire of a certain thread that filled up just now -
AIBU to share some information about girls and women with CAIS. Many of these women and girls won’t learn about their variation in sex characteristics until adulthood. Some might never know and not without the assistance of modern technologies (that can test , eg, karyotype). For cases of CAIS identified at birth, most individuals are assigned/ registered/ raised female. (Yes sex can be assigned).

Anyone who could know a girl/ woman with CAIS in the real world, and tell her she is , in fact , unambiguously a boy/ man, because gametes, - well you would deserve worse than to be called a sexual fascist.

The NHS recognises the existence of girls and women with CAIS , and provides medical interventions accordingly.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/androgen-insensitivity-syndrome/symptoms/#:~:text=Girls%20with%20CAIS%20do%20not,make%20some%20sexual%20acts%20difficult.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK1429/

Yes these conditions are rare, but the more we learn about the biology of sex development , the more complex the picture becomes, as with most areas of science/ biology/ medicine .

Generally larger stature, measurably higher in fast twitch muscle , measurably more slow twitch muscle, a larger skeleton on which to attach said muscle. Angle and width of hips which affects leg strength and position in terms of speed, larger cardiovascular system, better visual acuity, higher aggression as defined by testo level...... It's not really subtle

Oh, the old Michael Phelps argument is being trotted out again. When it comes to swimming Michael Phelps has genetic advantages when compared to the average man; he does not have genetic advantages when compared to other elite male swimmers.

👌🏻

yes but what is “the physiology of a man” precisely? What is the deciding factor that gives men a sporting advantage that needs to be accounted for? These are questions that are actually very complex, and not as easy to answer/ determine as people suppose. People typically say karyotype or gametes (as per a pp just above) are the one deciding factor , which is why I chose to highlight the example of women with CAIS, to show how this isn’t the case.
Again, I don’t know about the medical circumstances of those two particular athletes, I’m not sure this information is public, but this issue is much much more complex than it was being presented in that thread and in newspaper articles.

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Copied from another thread.

Feel free to educate yourself OP....

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/sms.14581

Tommy R. Lundberg, Ross Tucker, Kerry McGawley, Alun G. Williams, Grégoire P. Millet, Øyvind Sandbakk, Glyn Howatson, Gregory A. Brown, Lara A. Carlson, Sarah Chantler, Mark A. Chen, Shane M. Heffernan, Neil Heron, Christopher Kirk, Marie H. Murphy, Noel Pollock, Jamie Pringle, Andrew Richardson, Jordan Santos-Concejero, Georgina K. Stebbings, Ask Vest Christiansen, Stuart M. Phillips, Cathy Devine, Carwyn Jones, Jon Pike, Emma N. Hilton

Perspectives:

The IOC framework on fairness, inclusion and nondiscrimination on the basis of gender identity and sex variations is misaligned with current scientific and medical evidence and offers insufficient protection of fair competition for female athletes within a female category. Also, it does not adequately engage female athletes, who are primary stakeholders in their sport. Male pubertal development results in large performance advantages in athletic sports, which necessitates a female category that excludes male advantages, to ensure equal opportunity through fair competition for female athletes at all levels of sport. There is currently no evidence that testosterone suppression in transgender women can reverse male development and negate male advantages. In contrast, there is convincing evidence that the male advantage persists even when testosterone is suppressed. As a result, sports face the uncomfortable reality that the inclusion of transgender women in female sports categories cannot be reconciled with fairness, and in some instances safety, for females in athletic sports. The IOC must reconsider its framework and revise the 10 principles to reflect scientific evidence and fundamental principles of fair competition. We also recommend implementing a system to enable female stakeholders to be consulted in this matter and to have their voices heard, recognized, and valued

Stop pretending that the physiological sporting advantages of being a man are complex. Taller, longer limbs, bigger hands and feet, bigger hearts, bigger lungs, they oxygenate blood quicker, have greater bone density and muscle mass, narrower hips, no breasts.

Aside from all that, they don't have to deal with periods, pregnancy or the side-effects of contraception. All things that effect female performance.

Using the exceptions which prove the rule is a rubbish strategy for trying to demonstrate men can be women.

We only know that CAIS is a DSD because the people affected have XY chromosomes but do not develop as expected. Internal testes with a short cavity where the vagina would be usually be found in females cannot be considered a variation consistent with the concept as sex as a spectrum because it's a useless reproductive strategy which is the primary function of our sex organs.

If a person is totally unaffected by male hormones and their body doesn't respond to testosterone at all so they had no male puberty at all then I agree that their chromosomes are irrelevant and there is no harm done if they compete in the female category.

A male person whose testosterone has been deliberately lowered is certainly not in the same category.

There are a huge number of different DSDs with an enormous range of symptoms and effects and for many of them it would be totally inappropriate to treat them in the same way. E.g. with some the hormone levels and musculature are all well within the range for a normal male, it's just that the genetalia developed inside the body rather than externally - and it's entirely ridiculous for someone in that category to be treated differently from any other male except in a context where external genetalia are required (generally not applicable in sport)

I mean measuring all of that and determining the average distribution across each is really complex. And how are different factors to be prioritised? If we find eg an athlete is of a “stature” / twitch muscle speed/ hip width, that would be normal/ in range for a female athlete , but they have a male karyotype do they have an advantage? Can they compete?

Copied from another thread.

Feel free to educate yourself OP....

Good luck with that one!

Lots of people have health conditions that preclude them doing everything they want. DSDs may be just one more.

People who have a massive advantage over every other competitor as a result of having been incorrectly sexed years before should not compete with women.

In the occasional case where it comes a s a surprise, well that’s very sad, rather like discovering another health condition that means you can’t safely compete.

It certainly doesn’t mean you can batter women in the ring, displace women from teams and podiums, and basically cheat.

Neither should we allow unscrupulous recruiters to scour communities for men with DSDs to allow them to dominate women’s sports.

She was beaten in the last Olympics by an irish woman. Can't be that much of an advantage.

If you want to argue against sex segregation in sport, there's nothing stopping you actually doing so @Tandora, but be honest about it.

I haven't been able to face a lot of the commentary today, but a lot of the "men have penises and women have vaginas" crew have made hypocrites of themselves today.

If a person is totally unaffected by male hormones and their body doesn't respond to testosterone at all so they had no male puberty at all then I agree that their chromosomes are irrelevant and there is no harm done if they compete in the female category

progress towards recognising the issue isnt black and white.

Now what if the body recognises testosterone a little, but not what is expected / typical for men (eg people with PAIS) ? Where is the cut off. What about other types of VSC?
What if the person is on hormone replacement therapy, how does that affect their advantage? Etc.

Why do people like you insist on pretending you don't know the difference between men and women?

All the obfuscation around this is a transparent attempt to allow men to dominate all women’s spaces at will.

you aren’t wrong that this is an incredibly complex issue. Dsd really need to be handled on a condition by condition basis.

as difficult as it might be though to discover later in life your self perception does not match your reality, you can’t change reality. Many of us have to come to terms with a variety of genetics based conditions that can have massive implications on our lives.

this must be especially difficult for elite athletes and I have sympathy for them. That still doesn’t change the fact that some of them should switch divisions if they want to keep competing.

I was listening to something about the olympic boxers on the radio earlier. I do have sympathy for anyone living with this condition and they are not trying to gain an unfair advantage by assuming a different gender. However, if they have physiological traits which give them an unfair advantage, particularly in a sport like boxing where physical harm could be done to an opponent, then it just cannot be allowed.

I think the IOC bears a lot of responsibility for the current scenario. The federation that oversees international boxing did not allow them to compete in the world championships last year as they have stringent testing to determine gender in the context of competitive boxing and the two boxers did not pass. The IOC doesn't seem to have the same testing in place even though they knew this would be an issue.

It fewlya bit like a stunt if look into it.

but a lot of the "men have penises and women have vaginas" crew

Most of the world then? Men don't have vaginas. Women don't have penises. People of both sexes with disorders of sex development exist. Hope that helps.

All the obfuscation around this is a transparent attempt to allow men to dominate all women’s spaces at will.

Yep.

It always comes down to the same thing, doesn't it? All this talk about sex being a spectrum, there is no advantage by going through male puberty, some women are strong and some men are weak, blah blah blah.

OP, why are you so hellbent on making all sports mixed sex and taking away fair sporting inclusion for women and endangering them? Apart from not caring about sport, certainly not caring about women, what is your reason women's sports must include male people if they want to join? Just own the fact you are a male supremacist please

Oh and yes, you are being extremely unreasonable

Thing is though, the only DSDs that actually confer an advantage are the ones that allow XY males who look a bit like females to compete against females. They have an advantage because they go through male puberty. CAIS people don't have the physicality of elite athletes. They tend to have supermodel proportions - very long and thin. It's very unlikely that any CAIS XY person would reach Olympic level in the first place.

She has had 50 fights as a female, raised a woman.

And we know OP thinks that "trans rights" trump women's, because she's said this on many threads. This DSD talk is a convenient deflection.