I genuinely want pro-VAT people to answer these two questions

[Seenandheard]

(1) Do you realise that a private school child saves the tax payer/government thousands of pounds per year by not taking up a space in state school? Not to mention the space in the classroom/competition for places? (Do you care about this point or gloss over it in your minds?!)

(2) Do ypu realise that taxing education is illegal in the EU?

Yes or no to both points, please.

I do not want reams of uninformed angry opinions. I don't want this to turn into a multi page thread/bun fight. I just want to understand whether people realise these two points, really, truly understand them. Because it seems to me that there is a mentality of "they're getting a tax break" (WRONG) or "they're taking something away from my child" (WRONG) or "they can afford it so they can spread their wealth a bit" (I'm not going into the fact that my family spend more on taxes than Nordic countries, who have a far, far higher standard of living. We give so much, get almost nothing in return- but apparently we need to give more. More. More.)

I think my deep rooted anger here is to do with people's attitudes and uninformed opinions more than the policy itself. I need to know if people are aware of the facts.

That family is Asian, not British.

I have no objection to private schools if parents/grandparents are willing to pay, that’s fine. I don’t think eliminating them will address some kind of social justice issue as some do. I don’t think the number of families who switch from private to the state sector will push the state sector over the edge either.

But private schools are businesses. They can call themselves charities or non-profit making or whatever they want but if they are providing a service for a fee in a very competitive industry they are a business. So, based on turnover they are liable to pay VAT. And all the other associated taxes same as any other business. There are absolutely no reasonable grounds for any special status to be applied. If there are other categories of business who are exempt from VAT then they should be paying too - fairness.

As for EU rules - well, they don’t apply here.

By some fluke of design... hardly like your local Hospice are they?

oh so don't UK british Asian families use the private sector? who knew?

I like factual accuracy.

Others don't.

That is fine.

www.bigissue.com/life/letters/letters-private-school-posh-kids/

Most nurseries, music tutors, sports coaches, higher education colleges and universities are not liable for VAT on top of fees. Not yet anyway!

What are charities? Doh?

1. Yes I do realise that
2. I don't really give 2 figs that it's illegal in the EU, we aren't part of it.

But then I probably can't answer this question as I (state educated with state educated children) am completly against this policy, I think its a spiteful vote winning piece of crap tbh, which will harm private schools, harm or have no impact on state schools, harm the children who are in private schools due to emotional or sen reasons and will only widen rather than narrow the rich poor divide.

I. My taxes pay for loads of things I don't use. I'm happy with that

1. This is not a tax on education-it's removing a tax break on a luxury. I'm happy with that too.

It was a vote grabbing policy. They knew it would only screw about 7% of the population and so they didn't care. The policy won't make that much money and it is unlikely to mean more funding for state school.

My son was in yr 2 in state school when we realised he was about 18 months behind his peers. School kept saying 'working towards, working towards, popular boy, lovely etc etc. when we got him a tutor, the truth unraveled. We had no choice but to pull him out and send to the local small independent. Doesn't have a pool, has regular sports. The only difference is really the class size. He has thrived. And is now, after a few years back up to his age range for maths and English. Pretty fucking annoyed at this tax. Didn't vote for conservatives due to state of nhs and state schools and didn't vote for labour due to vote grabbing vat policy.

1. My taxes pay for loads of things I don't use. I'm happy with that.

1. This is not taxing eduction. It's removing a tax break from a luxury. I'm happy with that.

Yup. Pay it or use normal schools.
As someone pointed out before - private children aren’t being shoved up chimneys or thrown to the wolves.
They may, very few of them I would guess, change schools.
Something that thousands of kids do in the UK week in week out, for many, many reasons

Oh bore OFF!

Because us working class people are not smart or aspirational enough to improve our childrens schools, we need to be 'saved' by rich people's children coming in. Utter bullshit (sorry for the language but this is the point which really blows my state educated mind). If we are bothered enough about our children's education, we get on and do something about it ourselves. As Matilda says 'no one but me is gonna change my story'.

You aren't happy with your children school, improve their school, or change them to a different school. But if the parents already there aren't motivated to change it, the children from private school that move ( estimated to be under 1% of the total number of school children) aren't magically going to acheive what the 99% haven't been able too.

1)yes
2)yes

Both mine go to private and will continue to do so.

1. No, they don't. That's a complete misunderstanding of the economics of a school. Many schools in the UK are undersubscribed. So say, for example a school has capacity for 300 pupils but only has 290 on roll. The teachers' wages, the support staff, the building upkeep, all still have to be paid. Children opting out of state education actually cost state schools money because schools are funded per child on roll.
2. We aren't in the EU.

(1) You are wrong. The marginal cost of a few extra children at any given school, is not thousands of pounds per place. I think you are confusing the amounts currently spent per capita with marginal cost

(2j Yes, but we are not in the EU so this isn’t relevant.

I say that as a taxpayer, but with no other skin in the game

Great.

There are lots of people like @redalex261 on mumsnet who seems allergic to factual accuracy with her bizarre continuous confusion about

(1) what makes a charity a charity [clue - it’s about if it generates a profit paid to shareholders, or is all profit retained and used for the purposes as set out in the foundation documents] most importantly

(2) whether the good or service is VAT-able is just an arbitrary decision made by governments. Hence why supermarkets don’t charge VAT of food (even though they are massive businesses) and charities do charge VAT on non-donated items.

1. Yes I can see that’s true, but all the private school students won’t be leaving and so most will be paying the VAT.
2. No I didn’t actually know that, but we’re not in the EU so I’ve no real reason to know or be concerned about it.

I love the idea that parents who choose to send their children privately are doing it solely or even partly to generously free up a place for a child from a less well-off family. So generous.

Oh, and it doesn't and I'd forgotten but yes.

There was even a poster earlier who seemed confused as to what proportion of private schools are charities.

And several who think that it’s in any way relevant to the discussion despite it being repeatedly pointed out that it’s not.

Takes all sorts

I guess there is an irony that this is all on a discussion on the topic of education!

The only difference is realHe has thrived. And is now, after a few years back up to his age range for maths and English. *

.and you know this, how?Because the private school told you? Ha ha

I firmly believe that education should not be bought and all children should have access to the same opportunities regardless of finances

But all children don’t have the same opportunities. That’s life. Some are born to rich parents. Some are born to poor parents. You’re kidding yourself if you think forcing these children into the same school is offering them the same opportunities. Way too much in the background that impacts on life chances.

According to the gov.uk site, over 70% of state secondary schools are not at capacity. A teacher is paid and a classroom is heated whether there are 23 or 30 children in it

This is my absolute favourite. You would prefer your child was taught in a class of 30 rather than 23 as a direct result of this policy? At the independent school I work in, classes are capped at 24 so class size sometimes is not much different to the state sector.