I genuinely want pro-VAT people to answer these two questions

[Seenandheard]

(1) Do you realise that a private school child saves the tax payer/government thousands of pounds per year by not taking up a space in state school? Not to mention the space in the classroom/competition for places? (Do you care about this point or gloss over it in your minds?!)

(2) Do ypu realise that taxing education is illegal in the EU?

Yes or no to both points, please.

I do not want reams of uninformed angry opinions. I don't want this to turn into a multi page thread/bun fight. I just want to understand whether people realise these two points, really, truly understand them. Because it seems to me that there is a mentality of "they're getting a tax break" (WRONG) or "they're taking something away from my child" (WRONG) or "they can afford it so they can spread their wealth a bit" (I'm not going into the fact that my family spend more on taxes than Nordic countries, who have a far, far higher standard of living. We give so much, get almost nothing in return- but apparently we need to give more. More. More.)

I think my deep rooted anger here is to do with people's attitudes and uninformed opinions more than the policy itself. I need to know if people are aware of the facts.

If the government felt so strongly about private schools being so unfair, why don’t they just ban them? I genuinely don’t understand.

Where I grew up, you only went to the private school if you couldn’t pass your 11+ so needed extra help.

I don’t understand having to pay three times to educate your children: once through tax for an education service not used, again through the fees and thirdly through the VAT on said fees to pay for the first levy again.

In Denmark you get a tax rebate if you send your kids private, is what I’ve heard from a lady who moved there because she could no longer afford her kids’ school fees after her divorce.

It won't screw over 7% of the population, it will probably screw over maybe 2% initially. Then it will screw over a chunk of the 93% in state schools, not because of the small increase in pupils, but because labour have put so much focus on a policy which will make no difference, but in the several years which it takes them to realise/admit this, children in struggling state schools will continue to struggle. The 5% remaining in private will still be fine. Those in excellent state schools will be fine. And those who wete forced to move, and those in poorly performing state schools will be same or worse off, widening the gap and failing many children. It's just depressing.

Agree

Have Labour put that much emphasis on it, or have But Jeremy Corbyn?

Yes and yes.

Thanks OP for educating me on point 2 - this is the first benefit of Brexit I've seen!

On point 1 I doubt there will be an influx of kids in my kids' state school in a rather down and out part of London but if there is, the more the merrier as far as I'm concerned. It's just been rated outstanding by ofsted. Class sizes are capped at 30; I think my daughter's school is currently sitting at 29 so there is definitely space for someone in at least 1 class. Happy with ex-private school kids joining her class - maybe their parents can contribute to the PTA and see and support the excellent education that is on offer.

My conclusion from this thread is that the government should insist everyone pays VAT on everything from food through to kids clothes and holiday clubs. That way they could probably cut the overall rate to 10% and more importantly it would be “fair”.

There are always going to be moaners who think it’s unfair that people who buy something that they can’t, won’t or don’t buy, don’t have their pips squeezed.

I’m allergic to eggs and think it’s outrageous egg buyers get their eggs “subsidised” 20%…

Let’s all just be honest. Everyone’s favour tax is that paid by others and not them.

1 - Perhaps if 'everyone' had to use the state education - there would be more impetus to improve it?

2 - You do realise many people (who use private education) voted to leave the EU - and all that red tape?

Christ on a bike, stop whining about fees! It’s so f-ing dull now.
Private schools have been hiking fees up by 5/6/8/10% each year for years anyway.
Ask THEM, how they as a business, are going to help their loyal customers out or risk losing them.
They have had YEARS to prep for this. Even Tory ministers have thought about VAT and/or removing that dodgy ‘charity’ stays private schools have.

1. Yes, the solution would be to abolish private schools and use those buildi mug s and new state schools. It’s time to end inequality in education. Yes I am jealous of the opportunities and advantages that your children get compared to mine.
2. I didn’t know that but we aren’t in the EU

Nobody who begins with hysterical nonsense about being bled dry and being asked to give MORE MORE MORE is interacting in good faith.

It’s quite unlikely you earn more than me (not sure what you mean by your family income - we are both high earners but your phrasing reads as though perhaps it’s your husband who’s being asked to give more more more…..) and I can’t imagine viewing taxation like this. The idea that you get ‘nothing’ from the community you/your husband contributes to financially is patently absurd.

Everyone’s favour tax is that paid by others and not them.

Even better if some children are moved

When VAT was cut on sanitary products a few years ago, very little was actually passed on to consumers. The bulk of the money just went into increased profits for manufacturers and retailers.

I think that's the case more widely. Private schools (and other businesses) charge what they think their customers will pay. Increasing tax doesn't necessarily increase the end price by the same amount.

When you read their manifesto on schools, their key promises relating to education were

1. end vat relief on private school fees
2. review ofsted assessment system
3. recruit 6500 specialist teachers - no idea or suggestion where from, as saying they are specialist means they are not new recruits
4. fully funded breakfast clubs for all primary schools.

They made choice to go with 1 first as it's a headline grabber.
When any of the other 3 would have made a more meaningful difference to children living in poverty/attending failing schools. Improved and more rigorous assessment of schools would help improve them as long as it was constructive rather than punitive. 4 would have helped parents, especially single ones into better job opportunities through funded childcare and improved health through a nutritious breakfast, as well as reducing lateness and improving attendance. Given a choice I would have gone with the 4th one for it's immediate positive impact, but a bowl of cereal is less headline grabbing than 'let's punish the posho's'

Yes and yes.

They are a business. Not a charity. The ones around here won't take kids with SEN so the small class benefits aren't available if you could afford it. I'd rather work towards all kids having a good education than accepting only those who parents want to afford it get to have it.

‘Thanks OP for educating me on point 2 - this is the first benefit of Brexit I've seen! ’

🥹😅😅😅😅😅

@Seenandheard

First question is four questions in one.

Of the 7% there will be a bottom slice that may have to return to state education, having little to no impact, on state schools.

The “savings” by the minority opting out of state, are way lower than the income that will be generated from VAT. (See Labour manifesto cost analysis)

Given that I don't agree with your first two assertions, (meshed into one sentence), I am not glossing over anything.

I do not care about the constant whining of the 7% of our society.

Second question (which is really number five) I did not know that please provide the relevant EU direction.

Finally it is happening so get over it.

Someone upthread said that education benefits all of society. So why isn't Labour being bolder about this and taxing all of us to improve state education. That would really make a difference.

This policy will not raise what has been predicted; there are way too many variables that haven't been addressed but hey, who cares! So-called rich people are getting their arses handed to them on a plate.

I really don't expect anyone in state education to care about kids in private but I am surprised more people aren't questioning the veracity of the policy. Which is pretty much the only solution Labour has to a broken state system. It's so depressing.

Your 'genuine' need of answers isn't reflected in your frequency on this thread

Nope, I would very much prefer my children stay in their classes of 20 in their wonderful mixed demographic, well led state primary, with their 2-4 TA's per class, where the head knows every family, every struggle. Where my children mix with a wide variety of children, where children with SEN receive excellent support and the children learn respect and kindness before they learn maths and English, and attainment is way above the national average. The mum of a child in my daughters class is the deputy head of a very prestigious private school, but of the 30 schools they visited to pick one, both state and private, they felt this school provided the most rounded education.

This is what we should be doing, making state schools into places private school parents would chose over private, not forcing private school parents into state schools through taxing them out.

Jesus Christ, I am SO sick of this moaning.

1. No, regardless of ‘saving the state money’, private education does not benefit state education. It segregates children in one of the most profound and harmful ways possible. While some schools are oversubscribed, their is a surplus of places available in the state system.

2. We are not in the EU.

Accept the VAT. Time to move on with your life.

Best wishes,
Someone who can easily afford private education but doesn’t use it.

‘ So why isn't Labour being bolder about this and taxing all of us to improve state education. That would really make a difference.’

it’s either coming or they’ll be making tough calls on cuts elsewhere to start improving education. And health.
I mean if the Tories can find hundreds of millions to piss up the wall sending 4 volunteers to Rwanda then the new government can hopefully find some dosh to better education and health for everyone?

An educated population benefits everyone. We need the medical grads, engineers, the teachers, the creatives.
We need educated parents who can then help their own children to read, write and value education.
We finally have a government who reflect the people they represent- somehow these people have manage to succeed in life despite NOT going to private school.

As I have. As millions of people have. A 2 tier education benefits very few, but have your private school.
Just no more tax breaks.

This 100%

Private school fees have risen at such a rapid rate in the last 10 years. Way above inflation and way above the ‘improvement’ of service offered. Private education users should question exactly why that is and why it’s OK for a school to arbitrarily hike prices as and when it chooses but then struggle to pay its taxes.

Because people don’t want to pay just for others to