My dh has been messaging a colleague. Please can I have some practical and moral support

[PleaseVipersHelpMe]

NC but been here forever. Not really sure why as he would recognise the whole thing in an instant but I need the help and I’d rather he didn’t know. Please can I ask for some support?

I’m on holiday and finally plucked to the courage to ask my dh to let me see his phone. Told him it’s because I was feeling jealous of this woman (true). He let me, but obviously didn’t realise that he has to delete his deleted messages from the recently deleted file and I found quite a lot but only up till about 3 months ago, nothing before. Him telling her that he misses her. Texting when he was away telling me how much he misses me. Telling her that she’s one of the greatest people he has ever met. That he wants her in his life. Then arranging to pick her up from her house on his mid-life crisis car that i stupidly encouraged him to treat himself to. I feel so fucking stupid.

I took screenshots of everything and send them to myself but he’s insisting that nothing happened, that she was just his friend and he’s crossed the line but no affair. I haven’t found anything in emails or what’s app either. Is there anywhere else I can check without alerting him. I have full access to bank accounts and nothing untoward there so far but we don’t have online banking for one account (I can check that when I get home).

I feel so betrayed but the fact that he’s lying to me is worse. He’s treating me like an idiot. He insinuated in the texts that he was going to get her a company car but is saying he hasn’t actually done it. Funnily enough emails seem to be missing re this. He’s clearly been deleting calls from his call log but I don’t know whew do look to find them and I’m pretty sure they will be all gone now if not before. I know he’s lying is there anywhere I can look to find evidence of this? He won’t let me have the phone without him being there now.

I know it won’t make me feel better but it will make me feel like I’ve outsmarted him a bit and I wave him to feel as on edge as I do. I feel like I’ve been punched in the stomach and I’m trying to be normal for the kids but I’ve just been sick. I’m supposed to go out for fucking dinner with them all now and be normal. I‘m trying so hard to not upset the kids, they deserve better. This is horrendous. I’ve honestly told so many women on here what to do in this situation but I can’t believe this has happened to me. How could he do this. Any why does he think that shagging her is worse than lying to me? Thanks in advance for any help, and for reading ny ridiculous essay. I will respond to and replies as and when I can after dinner.

I’m really worried OP. For a marriage to survive infidelity, the cheater must:

1. Want to repair the marriage and leave the OW. (How is the HR process of removing her from his work environment coming along?)
2. Accept full responsibility and accountability for their actions. (Is he really doing this, or blaming you/playing the victim?)
3. Answer whatever questions you have with full transparency. (He has continued to lie to you, despite saying “no more lies going forward.”)
4. Agree to whatever new boundaries you set going forward, whatever they may be. (He refuses and says you are being “controlling”.)

None of this looks good.

Yes!

I'm not going to post in detail because this all feels too close to home and I'll be projecting my own experiences.

But every interaction with him seems to bring you more hurt. Over the course of this thread, his emotional trajectory is up, and yours is down. It's painful to read.

He cheated because he wanted to. You never factored in that decision.
If he has been unhappy for a years why not talk to you about it?

He will blame you/work/no friends/she perused him... blah blah blah but truth is HE chose to cheat because he wanted to.

I am so sorry he's done this to you. You will feel retched for a long while but you deserve better than a cheating coward.

So what is he doing to get rid of this “wonderful /caring OW who clearly makes him a lot happier than you do ? What a complete prick of a man - he has managed to turn his affair into being your fault (read that again OP)!! You made him have an affair (nothing to do with his ego, selfishness )
His behaviour is unjustified please don’t feel sorry for him which you and Counsellor seem to be doing because he cries.

I think you need to read Chumplady.com irgently!!! as he is giving you the “script” and rewriting your marriage history.

Good luck OP your going to need it, please get a great solicitor as his OW is going to end up with everything

His comparison of you and OW is ludicrous. Why would she be anything other than gushing and adoring when he was so enthralled with her and was offering her a car while pursuing her? He was and is still seeing her with rose tinted lenses.

He can deny it, but he still has deep feelings for her.

@PleaseVipersHelpMe, I don’t believe for a moment that he’s been holding onto grievances for 20 years. He is reaching for reasons to vilify you to justify his emotional adultery. He’s had an agenda and has had weeks to assemble criticisms for his Oscar-worthy performance. [I’m sure that you too could recall past occasions where he was selfish, unfair, etc., but you aren’t using them to rationalize cheating.] He cheated because he wanted to, and he will want to again.

He has spun a web and is pulling you in. He is absolutely doing a number on you, and it sounds like you are now accepting some responsibility for his infidelity. Please don’t. It sounds like the session was a farce where he was in charge and gaslighting. I strongly advise you to cease going.

Oh OP

He’s so predictable like every cheater.

Lies
manipulation
lies
gaslightning
lies
tears
more lies
DARVO (deny,attack,reverse victim and offender)

Either he wants to stay married to you and makes the effort or he can go.

He proved that OW was worth of his effort,you were not.

It’s your life and you’ll decide if you want to spend it with somebody who doesn’t love or respect you and is with you just for convenience of your labour,time and home comforts.

In the meantime OW will get everything you are not worthy in his eyes- his time,care,attention,affection and all the best bits of relationship while you’re told to put up and shut up. How very dare you impose anything on him.

Get yourself to chump lady and read up her stuff a bit. I listened to her book on Spotify while driving. I don’t agree with everything she says but she debunks the cheater’s bullshit beautifully. It really helped me to think rationally as just like you I couldn’t see wood for the trees.Once you see some things you can’t unsee them. The contempt and hatred is palpable.

It’s difficult to throw in the towel after so many years. In most cases the marriage is finished when one party decides to start seeing somebody else. The end of relationship is on the cheater,whatever excuses they come with.

Remember that actions speak louder than words. Words are cheap.

I walked away with my kids,told him to be happy with her seeing that I made him so unhappy he decided to start another relationship.
I’m at peace now. My Tuesday has come.

@PleaseVipersHelpMe I did say that you had to stop seeing him as a victim of a midlife crisis. He's a typical aging boss of a successful company who has access and means to interest younger women. He's convinced himself that he deserves her and actually it's your fault. My warning was that you didn't stick around listening to him telling you what you wanted to hear, while he got his ducks in a row. But do definitely think that he's working it long enough that your divorce won't be his fault, it won't be about the affair because you'd got passed that and was going to counselling. But you see kids, your Mother was just totally unreasonable, angry and paranoid. His emotions were the outward pouring of him being the victim. There's more to come out and judging by how it's going, it isn't going to be the last of him dallying elsewhere.

Maybe there’s an opportunity for this to be about renewal. You obviously don’t want to separate but don’t trust him and he obviously doesn’t want to separate but needs something that you’re not giving him. It sounds fixable to me and I suppose you have to make the decision to make it work or not. Or at least for now to give it a chance before you throw it away. Hope ur ok in all of this.

@PleaseVipersHelpMe, it sounds like this is a counselor who emphasizes the unmet needs theory, which you were warned about. Otherwise why would the cheater be given the floor to excoriate the betrayed spouse? Did the counselor challenge him at all about his manipulative DARVO that left you feeling brutalized and confused? Previously you were adamant that you were not accepting responsibility for his disloyalty …

Mantra: You are not responsible for his choice to cheat or his jerk behavior afterward.

He still maintains that there is no correlation between talking to her and neglecting our relationship.
Hogwash. He has been totally infatuated with OW, pouring his emotional energy, time and attention into her while being emotionally AWOL from you and the marriage. He was besotted, so welcomed her input while resenting yours. He even said the same sweet words to her that he used to say to you.

He’s drawing new boundaries. He calls the shots. You must be passive and compliant, and serve his wants/needs. Do the pick me dance and never rock the boat. He wants a Stepford Wife, and if you don’t measure up, he’ll invest elsewhere. I’m not convinced that it’s truly over between him and OW, as he still has tender feelings for her and has her on a pedestal, and prioritizes protecting her/their chat.

Of course OW is 'nicer' he's her boss, pays her wages. She has to laugh at his crappy jokes, say things the 'right' way.

@PleaseVipersHelpMe you are his partner not his subordinate.

If he can't see that there is a difference in the relationship between boss and subordinate vs between partners then he isn't marriage material.

A good marriage is built on mutual respect. Without that there can be no trust, faithfulness, integrity.

He isn't going to suddenly 'see the light'. His attitude is very much women should know their place.

OW knows her place, he's the boss so she acts as his subordinate. She will play along for as long as there is something in it for her. The second that stops she will be gone.

Do you want to wait around for this to happen? When it does (and I think it is when not if) will you want to try and put Humpty Dumpty back together again?

I’m sorry - now I’m at home I just don’t have the alone time to reply to every message but I am reading and appreciating every one.

Not everything came out in therapy. The stuff about no friends, not being able to speak to me and holding things in that I’ve done was discussed there. I didn’t say much tbh. He opened the conversation with his account of what happened and I was given the opportunity to correct the things that I felt he had missed so I did get to tell my version of the story too. I mentioned the content of the messages and the cars that he had missed out and the fact that I felt he had been pulling away from me for ages. He mentioned the account as a trigger again and I did get to counter and say that while I understand this upset him, surely it was clear that I wasn’t hiding it or keeping it to myself given I had used a good chuck If it to pay for holidays, school fees for dd and our credit cards. He then said that he’d paid for all of this for years and had never thrown it in my face. I said that I wasn’t throwing it in his face I was just trying to explain that I wasn’t squirrelling it away for myself, it was always to be used to the kids.

She then asked him why he thought he had begun speaking to other woman and that’s when we got all of the friends stuff and the feeling hurt by me and not being able to share his feelings. He particularly mentioned some issues I had had with dd - all true and certainly not my finest moment. He said he blames himself for not stepping in more and for dd’s mental health issues. It very much felt like he actually blames me. By this point dh was sobbing and the session was over. I didn’t have the opportunity to ask about access to emails etc but Im keeping a list of things to ask for next week so I’m more prepared. I’m also going to call today and ask to book an individual appointment with a separate therapist to talk through my thoughts as I don’t feel able to discuss with him anymore at this stage.

The stuff about ow not talking down to him and him being able to make her happy came from me asking separately what he enjoyed or got from speaking with her. I said the same about her having to be lovely because he is her boss and while I perhaps could be nicer at times, I’m his wife and he can’t expect me to constantly agree with him. He says it’s my ‘tone’. Maybe he’s right, I just don’t know anymore.

Sorry, I should also say he is definitely not in contact with her. He is showing me emails and texts she is sending and they are getting increasingly needy and desperate for answers. She’s kicked out of his emails and diary and he hasn’t actually explained why. He is only responding with basic info as required and a meeting will be scheduled with her new boss on Friday to make her aware of all this.

I did ask dh if he felt bad about not speaking to her anymore and he said not really, although he did miss having a friend to chat to, but he did feel bad about not having a conversation with her to explain why but he knew that was what I wanted. I told him that I was perfectly happy for him to speak to her if I could be there, and it probably was the kind thing to do. He then said yes but that might not be such a good idea as then he would have to admit that he had crossed the line. So I replied that in that case I just wanted him to be clear that I wasn’t actually stopping him from speaking to her, it was him who didn’t feel it was advisable.

Well his “tone” stinks TBH.

How convenient for him to take this opportunity to futher blame you for your daughters mental health issues.

How truly vicious he is.
I'm so sorry.

I have read everyone of your posts and think you are doing amazingly. I’m so sorry you are going through this.

My DH let me down badly recently. Not infidelity but it’s shaken my trust in him. There are some parallels that I can see and my friends have given me steers that have helped.

One similarity is him using the counselling session to cry ‘poor me’ - it’s all about him and his hurt feelings.

Another is him wanting to help the OW but not you. My DH will move heaven and earth to be helpful and supportive to others but let me down badly when I needed him the most. Was pretty awful to me really.

The other is when you raised an issue, he blamed the separate account and when you defended yourself and explained, he then took it that you were criticising him. We go round this particular merry go round all the time. If I ask him to do anything differently then he will feel hurt (no matter how I say it), defend himself by attacking me and when I then defend myself and explain, he will see that as an attack.

I would also describe my DH as a goid man underneath it all BUT

friends have suggested he has a narcissistic personality style. It’s a term bandied about a lot but you might find it resonates. It’s helped me take a step back and see the patterns and the manipulation.

Dr Ramani is a good start and does good videos. It’s recommended not to do joint counselling as you end up more confused and gaslit. You sound more confused, less clear and less strong to me in your last few posts. I might be wrong and this may not feel like it resonates so ignore it if it doesn’t.

Good luck. You are amazing. You are worth more than how he’s treated you.

He didn’t outright blame me, he says he blames himself for not stepping in when we argued. The truth is, he can’t blame me anymore than I blame myself. We get on really well now and we never argue at all as I simply refuse to do it. I’ve worked so hard on my triggers and learned to deal with them around a constantly grumpy teenager.

It seems particularly hurtful to me that we are getting on better than we have have in years - me and dd that is - and he chose now to pursue her. When things are finally stable with dd, when we’re recovering from my dm’s death which was very traumatic for me, when dm’s house is finally sold and estate finally settled after a long drawn out process, when he has fully recovered from an illness earlier in the year (during which I took weeks off work to take care of him at home). Why would he choose now?

@PleaseVipersHelpMe these are not 'hurts' he has carried with him for 20 years.

He has looked back over your marriage with a negative eye. He isn't rewriting history, he is putting a different slant on things. If it was that important at the time he should have said something then. If you sat down and thought about it I'm sure you could come up with some absolute stinkers of his.

He is doing this now because you have pointed out (perfectly reasonably as his wife) that he is making a total fool of himself over a younger employee. He now knows this to be true.

He feels embarrassed but rather than blaming himself he is blaming you. He is justifying his foolish behaviour by saying it's your fault he had to go gooey eyed over this woman.

Of course she's nice to the boss, he's the boss!

If I ask him to do anything differently then he will feel hurt (no matter how I say it), defend himself by attacking me and when I then defend myself and explain, he will see that as an attack.

I have said this to dh myself. Everything is taken as an attack. If I ask him questions about ow it’s a ‘dig’, if I ask him more than once to send me the fucking gardeners bill so I can pay him I’m ‘nagging’, if I ask him to pick his shoes up I’m ‘always kicking him for something’. I’ve never really noticed before but I think he sees me as his enemy when I should be his ally. I’m going to give the counselling one more try and see how I feel but you’re right, if I come out feeling like this it doesn’t seem worth it. I will mention the enemy thing next week and see what happens.

Thank you for sharing and for your kind words.

In fairness, I believe him and everything he is talking about did happen. I’m not blameless. But the fact he has kept it in for years makes me feel like I’ve been living a lie all this time. I feel like I’ve been sharing my life with someone who utterly hates me. That’s very difficult to come to terms with and I’m not sure what to do with that knowledge.

Might be helpful to take a quick look at this. If he does have a narcissistic personality style it can be helpful to be able to see the patterns as they happen so you can step away from them, and in your case, focus on the infidelity.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/invisible-bruises/202306/the-narcissists-cheating-playbook-six-signs?amp

from everything you’ve written, I don’t believe he hates you, I believe he hates himself and is projecting onto you. Read the article I’ve linked to above. I do think you might be dealing with someone with a narcissist personality style, but can’t be sure of course from just your posts.

It sounds to me like you have held the mental load and that this has meant you have had to ask him to do things like remember the vet appointment or whatever it was, why is it your responsibility to remember it and not his? This has then put you in the position of having to remind him and him reacting.

Cheating is not an appropriate response to dissatisfaction in a marriage. This is DARVO in the face of having to own up to his wrong doing. Defend (well he can’t really as there is no defence), attack (so he is now trying to blame you) and reverse victim/offender - he’s now finding ways to hold you responsible for his decision. You are the ‘bad one’.

Obviously people are complicated and the above is a simplification. But I think he may well have more deep seated issues than was obvious at first.

He's looking to shed himself of wrongdoing, by dragging up any minor disagreements you have had over the years.
He immediately took hold if the narrative in councelling & you had to defend, & leave without hardly any input.
I think he is manipulative. He basically was justifying his actions.
But life is full of obstacles. For every.
What is this Tit for Tat?
Simmering over the years over perceived wrong doings & not voicing it at ALL.
Your happy marriage apparently wasn't from this new perspective.
You came out confused & doubting.

Does he know you are on the verge of leaving? Does he believe it? It doesnt seem he has seriously taken on that His actions have thrown a grenade into the heart of your family.

He is rehashing old disagreements to hurt you now. Bringing up issues about your DD is just a cheap trick, he knows it is a button to press.

Unfortunately it sounds like he has the emotional intelligence of a teaspoon. You can't bring things up like a kind of gotcha then expect it all to go away.

I have been married 30 odd years. I am sure that if DH and I went through what you are going through, we could each come up with a long list of things we weren't happy about at the time.

We don't because we are happy now.

That's the difference, neither of you are happy now. He wants you to shut up about his foolish infatuation with his employee. You don't want to shut up about it.

He wants to brush it under the carpet and pretend it didn't happen.

You don't have to accept that. If he isn't willing/able to accept that he crossed a line and that a quick 'sorry' doesn't make it better then the thing he will have to accept is that you can choose to end your marriage.

It does sound like he is very much used to being the one in charge. Losing his head a bit over the employee has possibly shaken him a bit. You not falling into line is also shaking him. Worse than in a more equal partnership where disagreement and resolution is normal.

Don’t dismiss what this poster says OP or absorb unquestioned what your husband is now saying about you. No doubt none of us are perfect and he MAY be telling you things about yourself that are painful to hear but valuable. But in your early posts you said lots of positive things about him- you were surprised and expected better of him. You said he was an excellent dad, and that you were both looking forward to spending more time together. You wrote that you thought he was better than this and he isn’t the man you thought he was.

I think you’re going to stay with this tedious cliche man and you’ll be back here in about two years talking about the same stuff.

You ask, Why would he choose now [to pursue OW]? — meaning now that several external pressures had been resolved and things were better. To me, this is an indicator that his pursuit of OW had nothing to do with you at all. He developed a crush and he went for it because he could. The opportunity was there for the taking. He is now shifting the blame and bringing up resentments because he can’t face his cliche behavior.