To be glad that the VAT on school fees

[Shaketherombooga]

Is now going to be happening in January? what’s the point in stalling it? I think it’s one of many decisions that we just need to get in with.

YABU - it’s SO unfair. Labour hates ‘strivers’ etc etc

YANBU - Yup, Labour said they are taking away tax breaks for private schools, so let’s get on with it.

@Molly499

These issues simply don't exist in private schools, now why do you think that might be?

Why do you think they don't exist?

Are you always this happy to partake in some Schadenfreude, OP?

Or are you saving it for some special occasions?

Ah, I see. Thank you for explaining 🙂

I'd hazard a guess that it's because it's much easier for private schools to chuck out disruptive pupils. Whereas the process of permanently excluding a child from a state school is very onerous.

I think this- it just makes private schools for the elite. It’s made the wealth divide even bigger. I think labour have not realised how many of us (me being unable to afford the 20% increase with 3 children) to jump ship to state school. And my gosh we’re not in the minority. We’ve had 50% now drop and apply for state schools. Im more than happy to apply to state schools and move the kids no problem- my job as a state school teacher will potentially be effected depending on where my children get into and the wrap around offered.

Also - I don’t mind paying VAT at all. But then we need our state school allocation of £7500 per child. This would cover the 20% increase and allow those paying for their children in education to stay.

Has to be parenting I guess, more respect coming from the kids maybe. There is always the class joker but I never heard of any of the issues that state schools are having to deal with on a dail basis. Swearing, violence, utter lack of respect, and the parents who get called about this bad behaviour really not giving a damn.

I'm not personally against it, mostly because it's not something I've spent a whole lot of time or energy thinking about so don't really have an opinion, but it seems unfair to have it start in the middle of a school year. It shouldn't be implemented until next school year giving those who won't be able to afford it a fair chance to apply for alternative schools. Now they'll be left with whatever is available which won't necessarily be a school that suits their child.

💯 I’m an example- I’m now moving my 3 children into state schools, in an already oversubscribed area. I speak as a head teacher in a state school myself - we are having discussions on how we cope with the influx as an extra 10 children in a primary school is huge. I have no problem with state schools being given a larger budget though as we need it! But this seems short sighted - only the really wealthy will be able to afford for their children now to be in private schools. Often people choose private schools - like we did , for the wrap around and holiday clubs so we can both do our jobs.

Exactly. Most private school parents are busy with jobs just like state school parents. If it were me, I am not going to be spending my days petitioning the government- I have much better things to do with my time. What I am going to do is employ a lot of tutors and work to get my child into the best university I can (which will now be much easier as they will be state and not private!)

the current system is not broken at all. The government should have just put 1% on Ni over a certain amount and used that money to improve state schools. They should have been looking at what private schools have done well and try and mimic but that would be taking a radical stance and be investing in sport, music and art rather than English and maths which they currently seem to obsessed with for some reason despite being useless to most of the population

They would be foolish to rush into the legislation. There will be appeals and judicial reviews. Legislation made fast doesn’t tend to be good legislation. It feels inevitable but to avoid a car crash for some students they really should be looking at September start date.

I’m of the mindset that the policy won’t make as much money as they think it will and will have some unintended consequences. It is certainly a policy of ideology and not finance.

The very wealthy won’t be affected. They’ll crack on at the £40k plus a year schools regardless. They’re not paying those sort of fees by not going on holiday. I’m sure in the short-term people will pay it to keep their children in but the effects of this will take 5-6 years to shake out.

Mine is not starting secondary for another few years but this is live discussion as my primary school friendship group is not keen on our catchment comp but most feel priced out of school fees now VAT will be a factor. It seems to be shaking into 3-4 camps:

• accepting the crap comp inevitable and deciding to go on a bit of a spending spree (either holidays or kitchens)
• accepting the crap comp but also deciding this means they could retire much earlier by saving money that would have otherwise been spent on fees or saving up for house deposits for children
• Waiting and seeing re fees but saving heavily for fees and dropping discretionary spending early to have a bigger buffer
• planning for a house move into outstanding state area.

Now those in camp one are probably great for the economy. Bucket 3 perhaps natural. Bucket 2 is probably the most risky re tax receipts as school fees are a massive hook to keep high earners working. Bucket 4 not ideal for equity.

It won't be January - I am sure it will start in September 2025 - for many reasons that have been highlighted already and also because Starmer's government seems keen to be inclusive and are centrist. This is a vote winning policy but they are not trying to tank schools or 'stick it to the rich'

Few families will move to state, many will stay. The few who do move to state will have extra funds to support their kids outside of school and pay for experiences those may not even be getting now. The reality is wealth buys opportunities - and that includes a better education. Whether state or facilitated by parents. No amount of spiteful comments can change that

I am hopeful that this government pursues economic growth and productivity as they have stated so more parents are in a position to create fabulous opportunities for their kids

Listen, schadenfreude is a normal human emotion for many. But it’s usually less crass to keep it to yourself!

Your glee about this strongly suggests that perhaps you have not been as comfortable as you purport to be, with your decision not to ‘go private’.. You are just relieved that others who could have previously afforded it may now be joining you.

A smaller number of children will go to private schools making the ‘elite’ class smaller.

Fewer of the less privileged children will be able to access private school and all the educational, professional and social benefits that entails.

Without the VAT exemption motive private schools are released from their obligation to local communities e.g. sharing their facilities with local state schools.

Ditto the number of scholarships and bursaries available. These will also be commercially less viable when schools are struggling to recruit.

House prices in the catchment areas of the best schools will go up and children of families who would have opted for private school will colonise those schools and displace other families. This will obviously only happen as year groups move through schools so it will take a generation of school kids to see the full effects of this.

Tutors will be able to increase their prices in line with increasing demand so the top streams in comprehensives and success at 11+ will still favour those whose parents can afford to invest in their child’s education. Again, this displaces the intelligent children from less affluent backgrounds.

There is also more competition for those top streams and grammar places which, even without the tutoring bias, will reduce the number of places available for high achieving children from less affluent families.

All really to say that would-have-been private school pupils will push ‘normal’ families out of the better performing parts of the state system.

This is what we’re considering in the state school Im a head teacher in. The problem we have though is the teachers can only do
so much and the TAs are working with children with additional needs etc so increasing a class to say 35 will mean the teacher often has 35 children whilst the TA is dealing with anything else or 1-1 time. Most areas are over subscribed already in the UK , only a small percentage (which the media are honing in on) are under subscribed but it suits their narrative to say this. So most schools will have no choice but to increase class sizes as we have a legal duty to educate children. So yes this will happen .

Illegal and can be challenged like other policies have been challenged. Some parents are pretty pissed off and won’t just let it go easily.

Well said- the majority of parents at our independent school are both working. They can’t afford the increase and are leaving now and applying for state schools. The divide will be greater

You can be glad OP. But watch out - others might be glad when the government shits on you. Education is exempt. But Starmer likes a good bash of the "rich", as do thick voters who don't see the real inequality between state schools and other state schools. There are state schools sending around 80 kids a year to Oxbridge and there are others sending zero kids. Does state = state? My fat arse does it. The private school my ds just left sends fewer than 5 kids per year to Oxbridge. Why aren't you fighting to tax/replicate/get into the school that is sending 80 kids per year to Oxbridge?

So by taking these middle section of children out of private school, the government won't get the 20% and they will have to pay the school per child the state amount to educate. So if children move from private to state the government will loose the in VAT as the number of private children will fall and the cost of state will increase so the government will have less to spend not more.... simple maths. Currently government do not pay to educate these children.

Which state school is sending 80 kids a year to oxbridge? This seems highly unlikely.

I don’t disagree that there is no comparison between a leafy suburban grammar and a sink estate comp.

Labour have sold the public a yarn by constantly describing it as closing a “tax break”. My husband and I both pay the highest rate of income tax. A proportion of that goes towards state schools, obviously. We don’t use state schools. We send our kids to private school so we pay separately for their education. Effectively we’re paying twice.

Now we have to pay VAT on school fees so that state schools can afford 6,500 more teachers because they’ve been chronically underfunded for years. Not sure how that’s our fault, but we’ll suck it up.

Sorry, which bit of that was a tax break?

You know that 'public schools' means something quite different, yes?

What’s the point of your post?

@Shaketherombooga

I am SO far from being in the wealthiest 6% of the country. Two children in independent schools. Generous bursaries/scholarships.

I am SO SICK of people being horrible about the CHILDREN who are at independent schools. They are not all Hugos at Eton. (And you know what, maybe don’t give the Hugos a hard time anyway because - THEY’RE CHILDREN.)

“In a few years time I'm expecting to see state schools that are in effect enclaves for the middle class who part fund them with school donations. The education gap sadly wider than ever before.”

Not being argumentative as I think our opinion on this is similar but I am moving my children from private into state schools and absolutely will not be funding the school. Our money will now go into pensions , ISAs and housing for our children for when they’re older. We won’t increase our spending into the economy nor would we give it to schools. I don’t think anyone I’ve spoken to who are leaving for state schools would do this either.

DH is a governor as ours and the cohort of independent schools in our area (around 20 ) and will allow no notice of termination when / if the VAT increase is applied as they know some can’t afford it and they can move as they need to. I imagine others will be similar as it’s an unprecedented change - yes there’s been talk of this for years under labour but we’ve had a conservative government , no guarantee labour will have come in and also things like this take years / legal arguments and can’t be planned for until in place.

Hills Road Sixth Form College. Admittedly I can't see a date on this page.

An incredible number of Oxbridge… | Hills Road Sixth Form College