To be glad that the VAT on school fees

[Shaketherombooga]

Is now going to be happening in January? what’s the point in stalling it? I think it’s one of many decisions that we just need to get in with.

YABU - it’s SO unfair. Labour hates ‘strivers’ etc etc

YANBU - Yup, Labour said they are taking away tax breaks for private schools, so let’s get on with it.

No they don't sorry but thats a really incorrect statement, universities offer conditional places, the conditions are to hit the requested grades so a child from any school getting the same results will get the place.

Jobs again i dont buy into, I am in a traditional vocation of the wealthy, who have recognised 7 years of education precludes some from entering the profession and as a result have introduced apprenticeships to help those less privileged afford to study and work.

Within my practice, which, without specifying numbers, has employees in the 100s have never even seen a CV with a school included on it. We aren't unusual in our industry or those who intake graduates. I am interested in firstly if someone is fully qualified what experience they have, programmes they have been using, what sector. If they are fresh from uni, what uni and what grade. Beyond that no one even adds to a cv, your view is quite outdated.

@KnittedCardi not all independent schools are selective. None of the independents around us are. In fact, the only selective school in my area is a state grammar that parents have to pay for a full year of tutoring to pass the test, regardless of how clever their children are. That kind of privilege is fine apparently. But being able to afford fees for a non selective independent isn't......

Back to the original point though, to assume all independents are selective, or that they are all Eton/Harrow clones and all parents are mega rich to whom money is no object just shows how ill informed some arguments are in their blind pursuit of 'the rich'. We're not all paying to turn out the next Jacob Rees Mog you know?

I think this is a really good point. Why don’t we abolish the catchment areas? Then all students would have a more equal opportunity with regards to education.

this could also be done quite quickly whilst Labour has the mandate and the majority. Definitely for secondary schools but maybe also for natural exit points such as GCSE, A-Levels etc.

Possibly also at a couple of points in primary school?

It was in the King's speech, which with a majority of 172 pretty much guarantees it will happen.

@PenNirvana not for surgeons and consultants

It actually IS true. This is a study done by the British Medical Association (BMA) in 2015.

"Additionally, the 7 per cent of the UK population educated at independent fee-paying schools, make up 22 per cent of medicine and dentistry undergraduates"

https://questionnaires.bma.org.uk/news/therightmix/index.html

The picture has improved somewhat since then to 28.5% now (page 4)

https://6med.co.uk/guides/from-non-selective-state-school-to-medical-school-a-few-words/#:~:text=Private%20School%20Admissions%20Statistics,-It%20turns%20out&text=The%20Independent%20Schools%20Council%20(ISC,are%20from%20a%20private%20school.6med

But they haven’t done it yet. So much to early too give them plaudits for it.

It is easy for any party to make pronouncements about their intentions. It is especially easy for the opposition. It is quite another matter to actually implement.

Disadvantaged children go to the worst state schools in the UK according to the Sutton Trust but you can't normally change where people live or where there children go to school. Although I think in Brighton they are trying.
It is only possible to change catchment areas if you live in a city with good transport links. Where I live, it would take at least an hour to get to a different secondary school other than the one in our catchment. Also, if there are no catchment areas, then you can't have one school bus from one area going to the school it serves. I live in a small town on the outskirts of a city with poor transport links. There are currently buses from different villages bringing children into the secondary school in the town. You would need lots of different buses if these children went to different schools, which is uneconomical. You also can't have primary school children travelling long distances to get to different schools.

Hold your horses.

@GrandmasMeatloaf

"I think this is a really good point. Why don’t we abolish the catchment areas? Then all students would have a more equal opportunity with regards to education."

I like the concept, but if you take away geographical proximity to the school as the selection criteria (which as we can see is being gamed by people buying houses in good school catchment areas) then what do you use as a selection criteria instead.

So if students were able to apply to whatever school they wanted to (so long as they were willing to take the commute) then certain schools would be oversubscribed.

You could select on the basis of an entrance exam but that is basically a grammar school.

You could select on a lottery basis. The issue then is that a student who lives right next door to a school (who would previously do well under a catchment criteria) now finds they have to commute 30 minutes away to another school because they were unlucky in the lottery.

A voucher system might work where students can choose where to go and spend their school voucher, so that more popular schools get more money and can expand.

In any event none of the above is going to happen under a left wing Government which is more interested in taking away choice and levelling down.

It would be costly and complicated but the transport issue could be overcome with enough political will. The biggest difference between schools other than money is the attitude of the parents towards education and their ability to support it, which is demonstrated time and again in outcomes for different schools (leafy comp v inner city etc). I'm not sure how you go about changing that domestic pattern so by ensuring a real genuine mix of demographics in each school it's as close as you can get to a level playing field.

Well done. All that says to me is that the school has very little value added.

Until people stop talking in generalities about what private schools / parents / kids are like this is a pointless discussion.

True, but as pp have pointed out, privately educated children seem to be fair game to be sneered at and mocked by some posters.

This council is looking to try and cut £5 million from its £13 million spend on school transport. Can’t you just imagine the cost if children weren’t mostly prioritised to their local school? It would dwarf even Labour’s unrealistic expectation of income from VAT on private schools.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjr4qd24w2xo

Too busy counting her chickens.

You are right of course. Neither of the DD's went to a selective prep, but they did both go on to selective secondaries. One a top ten super selective, that most people have never heard of, and the other to the local overflow alternative, still selective, but less so.

Our town is chokker full of selective private secondaries. I doubt the top two will close, or even notice a difference, but the second and others locally may well struggle as they are made up of local middle class parents, just about making the fees.

They're not the opposition. Do you understand what the King's speech actually is? The only way the legislation can be blocked is if there is a backbench rebellion. The lords can't block it as it is a money bill so the commons have financial prerogative.

In terms of universities giving priority to state schools… let us remember Edinburgh University who two years ago didn’t give offers to ANY Scottish students to study law or several other subjects unless they met widening access criteria. The main widening access criteria is deprived area (not personal deprivation) which is hugely affected by housing density. This ruled out anyone one on the Scottish Islands and pretty much all of the Highlands from even being considered.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-64247475

As I mentioned earlier, there's a real North South divide within the top universities and professions. Going to an elite UK University or getting into medical school is so much more difficult from the North, regardless of school. No party seems to care. I suspect if we analysed outcomes by region we'd see going to private school in the North has very little influence on the supposed privilege gained by private school pupils elsewhere. They still lag behind the state educated Southeners with similar attainment. I was told recently at a top UK university that Northerners lacked ambition. I disagree, they lack opportunity. They certainly don't have the amazing facilities of the southern private school network. My DC currently wants to be prime minister. I hope they do, I would love to see the North South divide levelled which would be a top priority for them.

They have only been on power a couple of weeks, any statement before then was made in opposition. And no, legislation can be blocked in other ways - by courts, by unintended outcomes, by details, by events, by amendments, by politics.

SEN is one of the bigger ‘details’ - will Councils be expected to pay VAT on specialist school placements? If so, that offsets any additional income. Don’t throw ‘EHCP’ at me either - VAT is a UK wide tax and EHCPs only apply to England (no there isn’t an equivalent in Scotland).