To be glad that the VAT on school fees

[Shaketherombooga]

Is now going to be happening in January? what’s the point in stalling it? I think it’s one of many decisions that we just need to get in with.

YABU - it’s SO unfair. Labour hates ‘strivers’ etc etc

YANBU - Yup, Labour said they are taking away tax breaks for private schools, so let’s get on with it.

To be fair the local private school here let the state primary use the swimming pool free of charge, and they run some clubs which are open to all which are always well attended- especially the holiday science club (free of charge). I know not all do this, but people get hung up on the charitable status when in reality they've been exempt from VAT as all educational settings are as long as they follow X% of the national curriculum.

Personally I'm not bothered about this, it's sad it was the cornerstone of Labours education manifesto when there's far more that needs addressing in state schools than simply funding (of which this won't touch the sides anyway). Children from wealthy families will always have an advantage, many will still be able to afford it, those priced out will still be able to afford tutors, extra curriculars etc that give them an edge. Fair play to them really.

Will it bring in a bit extra cash? Yes

Will it reduce inequality? No

To do that they would have to seriously overhaul the entire system and get rid of grammar schools, faith schools, academies and introduce a lottery system in admissions so that the best state schools were not just in the areas where the middle classes lived. And that's before you add in the paying for tuition etc.

The whole system is skewed in favour of those who can afford to buy houses in the right area or know how to play the system by paying for tutors. This will do very little to help the average kid at a shite sink comprehensive.

With attitudes like this thread no wonder people don't do well for themselves. Tax the rich and give me the money because I deserve it as I don't want to work any harder and it's not my fault.

It's not my fault my parents aren't rich, it's not my fault I'm not privileged. It's not my fault I don't earn enough money.

So you're not allowed to either.

Nasty people all earning more money than me and putting it back to economy.

People buy their children advantages all the time. Should I not pay a higher mortgage so my kids got into a good state school? Should I not have paid for swimming and dance lessons to improve their fitness, confidence and social skills? Should I not purchase revision guides, books and a laptop so they can perform well at school? Should I not take them on holiday so they can experience other cultures? I mean where do we draw the line? How many parents in state schools pay for all of this and more to give their kids an advantage in life?

@Sprinkle5

They used our SEN team. After school clubs, swimming pool, lacrosse fields, rugby pitches, access to our libraries, our theatre, the list goes on

Erm. Steady on.

I genuinely think they don’t want this VAT to go through. They could have done an emergency tax budget and snuck it though. Instead they’re doing it through the legal route where it will be contested now. If we look at the Rwanda plan it was a legal minefield - this will be similar. Labour know this and I imagine after the meetings / discussions they have had with independent schools they will be hoping it drops off, however need to be seen to be going ahead with it .

It's not envy, it's the fact that private education is immoral. You should not be able to buy your child an advantage, everyone should have the same options.

I mean I went to a truly awful comprehensive school, I studied every night for hours upon hours to build a better life for myself, why shouldn't I give my children an advantage in life if I can afford it? People rightly put their families first, laughable that there should be a moral code around not doing so just because others can't.

Yeah I also went to a comprehensive. I was bullied for being clever/a geek. There was no way in hell my own dcs weren't going to get the best education possible, where they were truly allowed to be themselves and where academic success was celebrated. They went to state primary, and I watched a few years of the clever girls in years above going to the local state and slowly losing interest in academia. So that was not an option.

No it's more the great private school ennui. Everyone is sick and tired of hearing about your terrible VAT predicament. Pay up or move out. It is simple.

And bullying never happens in private schools? 😂

This.

Except that some private schools do exist to aid social mobility and support pupils with SEN.

Teddybarr - I also went to a very rough, not great academically, senior school and I taught myself basically. This doesn't mean that I then pull the ladder up behind me and send my kids private. My children go to state schools. They do have the advantages of a stable home, lots of cultural capital and tutors if needed but they go to a normal school.

Shouldn't having gone to a shit school mean that you are even more invested in all schools being good rather than just giving up and paying to go private?

Where are you with such small state secondary school classes?

It's generally 30 per class round here, for most subjects right up to GCSE level. You get the odd subject at GCSE that is smaller, due to popularity of subject but if it's too small it simply doesn't run. And some of the lower sets in maths and English are smaller, middle and higher sets are 30.

A level classes are smaller.

Mind at the private school Dd went to most classes were bigger than what you are suggesting for your state school!

the ‘teachers’ who are hired without any actual teaching qualifications…

Op there are often complaints about teachers in state schools having to teach subjects other than their own because of a shortage of teachers. How is that any different?

I think if state school is really improved by the VAT then parents will mind less about paying.

I will say those who say private school parents don't care about others - I can't think of another tax that is applied so specifically to one sector of society to specifically help another.

My children also go to state school, I just don't get the moral affliction some are trying to attach for giving your child an advantage in life should you be able to afford it.

@Shaketherombooga so why are you pro taking money from these parents to fund your state system (twice) if it’s ‘not awful?’

Sadly state schools are in the main pretty awful. That’s why you have a chip on your shoulder and why you’re expecting those who can afford to prioritise their children’s education to also fund everyone else’s. Although sadly 20% vat isn’t going to fix the problems in state schools. Give it a couple of years and you’ll realise this.

I'm interested to know why you think private education would be 'pulling the ladder up behind you"? What are you giving back by sending your dcs to comprehensive school?

The state system is awful. Just listen to what teachers have to say about it. Our small local secondary hasn't had a science teacher for the last three years. They always have staffing issues and at times they have to use the hall, where a full year group which I think is around 90 children have to sit and work from books with one teacher supervising. This school has a "good" ofsted rating.

Both DH and I have had poor experiences of the education system. This was years back so pre-tory austerity. We are from areas where the majority of children have English as a second language. Lots of misogyny, poor behaviour and violence. I would say my DH had a worse time than me and the stats on white working class boys attest to this not being an isolated experience. DH only passed 2 GCSEs. Both of us have had to work far harder than many of our colleagues and have had to study whilst working to get qualifications and degrees.

And now we've got a baby boy. I won't apologise for wanting better for him and being worried about how his education will impact his life. I don't want him to struggle like we have.

So whatever your stance on private education don't pretend that the state system is great. It has and is continuing to fail many.

Gosh this thread reeks of communism. And also really uneducated , jealous people. And yes to be honest some people who have more money than you- do work harder and have put more effort into school life and exams, their education and their career progression to earn the money they do. Simple! I went to school with some right idiots who messed around, didn’t revise and now sit on Facebook all day saying how they can’t afford things and live of the government but low and behold we say they don’t work hard etc they pissed around and this is the consequence.

Do you have a problem that I pay for my private healthcare, I had private births, pay for everything including prescriptions privately? I think the first thing if the VAT comes into play for schools is we add it to private healthcare as well- then we should all use the NHS like everyone else. Then we need to add it to universities and before and after school care in state schools.

I have no problem adding on the VAT in schools but let’s then get our children’s state education allowance. Perfect - everyone’s happy.

Why do we pretend everyone has the same or should have the same? My next door neighbour is going to the Caribbean on holiday and drives a large 4x4- im not jealous and say she must sell it / not go and give her money to the poor. Her money , she can do what she wants. Same with schools- add the VAT on all you like - those with money will afford it, those without will move in to an already struggling state sector. But they’ll still have their money and their children will have private tutors, extra curriculum activities- they will do well because of their attitude and non sponging upbringing!! I wouldn’t feel smug that some will move their children into state, instead I’d take a long hard look in the mirror and realise it’s some of your jealous, state grabbing attitudes that have led you to be the person you are now and live the life you lead. Go make something of yourself and stop whining about those who have .

Then we can move ion to removing all schools that are divisive or have specific admissions other than catchment/local school.

Grammar schools - many areas don't have them anyway so not sure why some areas need them. Those that do often are affected by high rates of private tutoring.

Church schools - let's stop splitting children based on religion too.

I'm sure there are others.

My kids state school had their own pool, full-size artificial turf rugby pitch and every sporting facility you could possibly want.
I think lending your pool to the primary school is all about PR and attracting new customers for their high s hool years.In our area the maintained promaries use the bigger and better council pools and whatever the cost to the school is income to the council's leisure services
Therefore council net cost zero

My kids state school had their own pool, full-size artificial turf rugby pitch and every sporting facility you could possibly want

I mean - good for you. I cannot think of a state school in three counties that has these facilities! There is a 6th form college that does.

Surely you must realise that school is an outlier?

The Mumsnet logic is fully at work - state schools are awful with crumbling buildings and rife with behavioural problems, but also outstanding, everyone outperforms the private school and has extensive sports facilities.

That's a naive comment.

People purchase or provide privilege to their children all the time. By your metric there should be no tutoring, no extra curriculars, no private healthcare or private SEN support etc.

In fact some children are born to parents that read to them, talk them and engage with them - that's an advantage. To create equality lets grow all children in a lab and raise them exactly the same that would fair