To think 'chav' is not an okay thing to call people?

[enternow99]

I find the use of chav on Mumsnet shocking. Is this name chavvy? Is this holiday destination chavvy? Is this outfit chavvy? Chavs moved in next door (I'm a leaseholder, they rent!!!!)

I understand its snobbiness but isn't it a bit horrible?

No one is hating anyone.

Dordi!
I have never heard Charva used as a horseman - sometimes as a mispronunciation of Chavva - children.
Horse is a grai (not a written language, so spellings vary)
Grai mush - horse man.
I'm not fluent, I am a generation away. Gorgios take the language and mispronounce/misuse it.

This thread is hilarious. Chav is a word to describe a person who displays a certain set of behaviours which are perceived by someto be negative, and apparently that's a terrible word to use
But those same people are happy to call people snobs, also a word to describe a set of attitudes and behaviours which they perceive to be negative. Madness!

Is not discrimination in the legal sense, as discrimination applies to something which a person cannot change - skin colour, gender, disability etc. It does not apply to the choices someone is making about their behaviour, clothing, actions etc. Which are absolutely their choice to make. But calling it discrimination undermines true discrimination people experience every day, about things they have no choice over, cannot change.

Bushmills - such ignorance in every line.
Do you think a Gypsy/Romany can or would want to change who they are?
Do you think we do not suffer discrimination?
I am not saying that the people you call Chavs are racially discriminated against, that would be idiotic - they are not likely to be Romany or Gypsy. You really cannot be that thick?
I am objecting to the name you ascribe to them - Chavvy, which means Romany child. That is the origin, there is no other.
Will you please get it through your head that the Romanies and Gypsies are an ethnic minority - it took until 2010 for this to become law. You cannot discriminate against us any more than you could an Indian, Dane or Nigerian. Using our word for child to describe something you consider laughable or disgusting is racist.

Mush is very common colloquial where I grew up. I had never heard of anyone refer to someone as 'mate' until I moved to a different part of the country. Many Roma words have made it into everyday language. There has been a population here for 500 + years after all. I've never known the word Chav in its modern useage to be used to describe people of Roma origin, even if that's the language the word originated from. As I said previously, how do we know it wasn't first circulated by Romani in it's current meaning?

Chav does not describe being of Romany origin, it's the word for child. You would not call an adult a chav.

I can assure you that Romanies or Gypsies would not describe the ill mannered or whatever descriptions are on here as Chavvy - it's the word for their children!
It would be like calling out the ill mannered or obnoxious as 'children'.

The way it has been used is certainly not circulated by the Romanies. Why would they? 'Those obnoxious gits are Chavvies!' I don't think so.
Mush is probably fine - it means 'man'. I personally would not take issue with that. I presume it would be applied to any man, not just the worst kind.

It is just a descriptor and whilst unflattering, it's no worse that Toffs or hooray Henry's

Never mind. Confusing post was edited.

I think as we have established on this thread, most people are not using the word chav in relation to romany gypsy's, they are using it as a word which has come into popular use to describe a person who acts and dresses in a specific way, and there has been various explanations for the words modern origins. Lots of words in the English language have root origins which in no way relate to their modern use. So yes, you could accuse people of ignorance in not looking at the historical origins of words they use.

And I would never use that word, my point was that people are using judgemental words like snob, classest etc, to describe other people using judgemental words like chav, which is pretty hypocritical.

I do take your point that using a word relating to a specific culture or ethnic group is offensive, and absolutely agree, and maybe there needs to be more education on why this word is particularly offensive, in the same way there has with the N word, which used to be in common use, but is (hopefully) rarely heard nowadays.

Some people think it's a compliment to be called a snob - it really isn't..

gardenmusic · Today 17:15

I have never heard Charva used as a horseman - sometimes as a mispronunciation of Chavva - children.

Oh, I read it years ago, in the Evening Chronicle. I wonder if Geordies heard it years ago and mis-applied it? Seeing kids on horses.

I can't imagine anyone thinking it was a compliment to be called a snob. It's an unpleasant judgemental term, from people who often know nothing about a person and where they come from, and who they are. I remember being called a snob at school, by people who knew nothing about me or my family and the struggles they had been through, just because my Dad drove a company car.

So what's the issue? I don't understand why people are trying to claim it's racist then? It clearly has never been used to describe Romani people in it's common usage. The word chav is a throwback. It's dated. People use it ironically nowadays and on the internet. I've not heard it uttered IRL in conversation for ever. Might've heard chavtastic among close friends, often to describe themselves, which imo is an even better descriptor. If we didn't have the words chavy/chavtastic/chav we would undoubtedly have another word with the same meaning. The fact that it may be of Roma origin makes it an even better word. We have many odd British colloquialisms, and even more regional ones, that point to the melting pot of culture that we are. Words take on different meanings. I think it would actually be a great shame if it fell out of use altogether.

Maybe 'chav' is more associated with working class because poor people's anti social behaviour is more visible - it manifests in setting bins on fire on the shopping centre etc, whereas rich people's anti social/moral black hole behaviour isn't always played out in exactly the same way. It's in dodgy financial dealings and quiet crime, rather than nicking cars and tear arsing round the estate.

And rich people can afford high end brands to serve the same function of impressing their own social group. They aren't limited to JD Sports. And they can afford the 'good' cosmetic treatments and hair colourists, so their style is likely to blend in more with everyone else.

You know what, I'm going to leave you to your thoughts and casual racism, because you are not going to see it. Racists rarely do.

@gardenmusic time for me to bow out too, this thread is depressing. Thank you x

There are some fair points here.

@gardenmusic im sorry if you have felt people were being racist,

I think the reason it is hard for some to see it that way is because it genuinely usually isn’t used as a racist term. I understand your point that it is a Romany word; but people aren’t using it to describe Romany people. I’m not saying this to reopen any arguments but as an attempt at apology if you felt people thought of Romany individuals as chavs. I really going think it is used like that. I certainly don’t think that way.

The word Chav is not exclusively of Romany origin, it's also a Hindi word meaning eagerness. It might be impossible to know how it first came to mean what many people would interpret it to mean now, but there could be a logical link there such as 'over eagerness' to try to impress people through a specific appearance, probably more logical than the link to Romany origin of it as child.

Regardless of origin, it's an unpleasant stereotyping word which people use, like many others, to describe a person about whom they likely know nothing.

I grew up poor but my parents instilled in me manners and civility. This has nothing to do with poverty but with behaviour and mindset. Stop being woke.

One is punching up( widely viewed as being less unacceptable),the other is punching down.

What I've got from this thread is that 'chav' can be upsetting for a person, if they're not a chav, but tick some of the 'usual' boxes.

I think the comparison with the word Karen is a good one.

People who aren't Karen's, but are eg middle aged women who stand up for themselves, are scared of being called it.

People who aren't chavs, but eg live in a council house, are scared of being called it.

YANBU, I totally agree with you. I am appalled at how many people on MN think t's ok to be so obnoxious about what or who they consider vulgar or chavvy. It's bandied around freely and imho is as bad as racism, sexism and ableism.

It's not really as bad. Chav is about behaviour - it's a choice, not part of a persons innate make up

You're absolutely right, as someone who grew up on a perfectly decent council estate but still got called a "girlo" (Irish term for a chav)