To think 'chav' is not an okay thing to call people?

[enternow99]

I find the use of chav on Mumsnet shocking. Is this name chavvy? Is this holiday destination chavvy? Is this outfit chavvy? Chavs moved in next door (I'm a leaseholder, they rent!!!!)

I understand its snobbiness but isn't it a bit horrible?

This might interest the minority here:

There are 1/4 sessions court records from the 1700's that describe "The examinant" "an Egyptian Sibylline woman" who was "encamped upon the parish common land" following her husbands deportation under 'the Egyptian act,' giving witness of "carnal knowledge of mine chavi's body" and he "hadde by vyolent means spoiled her againste her will" from a Romani mother about her daughter's rape and who is "now with child".
The mother and daughter have been brought before a 'Knight' who is one of 'their Majesties Justices of the peace' to explain the amount she is demanding the 'natural father of the bastard child' should pay towards its upkeep.
She refers to her daughter as "a Kalderash chavy three seasons and some odd dayes past her eleaventh year". (a specific 'caste' of Romani girl a bit under 12)
The clerk recorded her as having repeatedly shouted in "adulterouse cant"
"Sir mengrowe rabolnl arymy chavy!" which was recorded in the belief it might be a "curse" or attemt to "defame" the JP.
Most likely translation is 'Kimengro rabolin ari mi chavvi' which basically means 'this worm of a being has ruined/spoilt my little/young girl.'

Mans defense is everyone knows that any female 'of the common' land is 'by nature of poor worth' (no money or value) 'of common use' (free to use) and 'incontinent' (has sex outside of marriage) so "he didde cast her downe againste the ground at ye said common whilest" she "laboured scouring herbes with waters boyled over the fire."

It goes on to describe bruising and no suggestion she was willing, but he's not denying what he did, as there's a witness and her being 'of the commons' means there's no actual crime.
Her mother on the girls behalf requires 'more then he was willed to geve for her isue' (isue means the baby, not how it came to be)

What's before the court is the mother and children are living a settled life on the commons which means their existence is not illegal, however the mother is "of low means and worth" and unable to support her daughter's additional child.

There's no crime because the girl is considered part of common property and use, as she was 'untended.'
The pregnancy is known about and abortion and infanticide is by then a big legal issue. The parish wants to prevent 'bastard children becoming a charge on the rates' and must adjudicate on the amount being demanded to support the resultant child.

Poor little commons chavvi indeed.

@gardenmusic although I think this thread started due to another thread about whether going on holiday to an all inclusive hotel in Egypt will be "full of chavs" which is a horrible thing to say but I really don't think they would have meant it as "will the hotel be full of Romany people"?
The Romany word might be it's origins but as this thread shows it's evolved and developed different meanings (the "Council House Alcoholic and Violent" that some people think it stands for) so when people use it they aren't using it as an insult to Romany people - they are using it to insult a different demographic of people. (I know "demographic" isn't the right word for Romany people - but I hope you get what I mean)
It's a horrible insult that's evolved from a word (that wasn't originally an insult) and has developed different meanings - so a lot of people will be genuine in not knowing it's origins.

According to certain posters it's native to Bolton or interchangeable for Essex.
I've been to Bolton the people I met were incredibly nice and friendly. And Essex is a very large and predominantly wealthy area.
Regarding names I think in 1981 some posters would ave considered Zara chavvy until Princess Anne chose it.

It's a horrible insult that's evolved from a word (that wasn't originally an insult) and has developed different meanings - so a lot of people will be genuine in not knowing it's origins.

Some may be too young or too ignorant to understand the origins, but now they know - and still they use it.
Chavvy may have dropped into popular parlance, but it's meaning does not change.

Class and income are not the same thing and calling someone a chav is absolutely about class and class signifiers.

Just seen this while having a scroll. If I hear the word chav, I think anti-social. Which would explain memes like this.

What's interesting to me is that my ex husband was from a nice area of the country and his idea of a chav was as some posters describe. Trying to buy class - but the people he described had money to fritter away. He was in for a shock when he moved because he had assumed that was the most vulgar kind of person one could encounter. My family referred to exH as "Posh Knobs". Instead, he would call the kids round our way "urchins", which for me conjured up images of raggedy dressed children with dirty faces.

After reading a few comments I think that if the likes of the OED update their meaning of the word chav to be a racist slur, I would be inclined to stop using it. Otherwise, I think it's a commonly accepted name. Tbh I think it's only a word I've ever used in writing, and to people who wouldn't understand what a docker-picking scrote is.

What a load of nonsense.

People need to stop trying to blame others for the way their lives turned out and start taking some personal responsibility.

These “struggling adults” are in fact adults that are perfectly capable of sorting out their own lives if they can be bothered to do so.

Wallowing and pandering to them with the “poor you, it’s not your fault” attitude helps nobody.

I assume you don’t know the phrase enfant terrible then? A phrase used in English with the French word for child to describe someone whose behaviour is shocking and/or embarrassing

I assume you don’t know the phrase enfant terrible then? A phrase used in English with the French word for child to describe someone whose behaviour is shocking and/or embarrassing

I don't think enfant terrible is the word for 'child' in French, you are just describing a naughty child in French for some obscure reason.
Keep scraping the bottom of the barrel to excuse the racism, though.

I agree to the extent that you can’t label a whole “ group” - for instance just because your sister is a chat or you live in a particular area etc doesn’t make you fit the bill. Every person is an individual and I don’t think you are born a chav, it’s a decision you take in adopting certain values and behaviours. But I think you can generalise about the aspects that make people generally feel an individual fits the description.

I think her point was that you don’t need to be French to fit the description enfant terrible.

None of these concepts are racial because with race you are born something. Being an enfant terrible ( or a chav) is based on behaviours and attitudes that are acquired not innate. It may be a Romany word ( though I think it’s far from clear it is the source of the term) just as enfant terrible is a French term that doesn’t make a statement about being French per se.

Calliopespa

Just keep scraping the barrel for excuses.
You are never going to have the grace to admit that you have made an insulting comment.
I'm done trying to educate you.

I don't have a problem with it at all. It's a handy moniker to accurately describe a certain sub culture. Everyone immediately knows who you mean. At university we had lots of descriptive monikers to describe distinct groups. Goths, Rugger Buggers, Townies etc. Conversely, I don't have any problem being labelled a snob or judgemental because I absolutely am.

Everyone judges. Anyone who claims not to is a liar!
And all these people so determined to defend the poor put upon traveller community , would be total nimbys if said group wanted to camp in a field outside their houses.

As I understand it, we have evolved by making hundreds of, surprisingly accurate, judgements every day. We're actually extremely good at it, even when we just rely on a quick visual appraisal. Yes, we might sometimes get it wrong but we actually get it absolutely right most of the time.

I don't think enfant terrible is the same at all, to me it's a (possibly) middle class child who is playing up, going through a phase. Nothing like describing an entire group of people.

@Arraminta so if you look at a group of people and say "urrgh what a bunch of chavs" do you mean -
1 - "look at those people who could possibly be of Romany descent"
2 - "look at those people who are probably from a council estate and are likely to have asbos"
3 - "look at those people in fake designer clothes trying to look like they have more money than they have"
Which is it?
Because despite the many posts of "of course people know what it means" this thread has clearly shown people use it to mean different things.
(none of which are acceptable or nice)

Why couldnt you wear your Burberry?

Orangutans can identify patterns. Healthy cognitive function would involve the ability to see your prejudices and frankly hate towards people and identify them as internalised socio-economical discrimination. Especially after two days of you lurking on this post

I don't think enfant terrible is the same at all, to me it's a (possibly) middle class child who is playing up, going through a phase. Nothing like describing an entire group of people.

It's not used about children at all in English, I don't think. It is usually used to describe an extravagantly dissolute or shockingly-behaved adult, often one who is well-known in some particular cultural circle - 'The enfant terrible of classical music' etc. But no, it's not remotely like using a romany word to describe a whole group of people.

" The Fabian Society considers the term to be offensive and regards it as "sneering and patronising" to a largely voiceless group. This is middle-class hatred of the white working class, pure and simple."

I'm curious- would you share these thoughts in your workplace?

I think judging someone you dont know for having very blonde hair or judging women as being 'up for it' for the tightness of her trousers is mind-blowing.

Some women hide behind their 'tasteful' hair and safe clothing putting out what they think is an image of goodliness. When on the inside they're filled with hate of women who they dont even know. I feel so so so sad for the children (and partners) of these women.

You're right it's not about money, clothes, or cosmetic procedures. It's about what you are like on anonymous forums.

It’s a total irrelevance anyway. No one envisages Romany people when you say Chav. There are lots of other eirdz gif that and I’d agree they are pejorative and unpleasant. But that simply isn’t how Chav is used.

Teentaxidriver · Yesterday 15:20

Chav, or Cheltenham Average. Coined by the ladies of Cheltenham Ladies College to denote a particular type of local.

Or Council House and Violent, another retro fitting. It's from Romany, charva, meaning a horseman. It's still charva in Newcastle, which has a fair bit of Romany slang / dialect.

Doilem: idiot
Gadgie: man

... for example.