To think this is scandalous yet in plain sight because the patriarchy has no shame

[Webjisroommate]

A year ago I separated from my DD’s father and she was in the middle of her first year of nursery. He paid the cms amount every month, without fail. This was 360 a month, even though I was left to pay over 1,300 on nursery fees alone. Obviously the situation has now changed slightly with the hours but his 360 contribution is quite literally nowhere near half her costs. I have spoken about this with other mum friends and have learned that 360 is actually pretty fortunate! Some women are being paid less than 200 and others have to chase cms when their ex is self employed. I was not aware of any of this before having Dd.

My career is now hugely clipped as I am doing 95% of childcare while ex sees her a day a week… the day I use mostly to clean and get the house in order to start the week again. And yes, I suggested 50/50, he didn’t want that.

I honestly feel like this is a huge joke player on women in plain sight while nothing is actually done about it?! I also can’t fathom how HMRC can chase tax from the self employed but Cms can’t chase these men to pay for their children. It’s a disgrace. Why is this allowed to happen?!

It's almost funny how a person can poo poo looking after any child over the age of 2 as easy and not realise that this is a glaring sign that they either don't do it to any significant level or are truly shite at it.

Have you asked them all personally?

Unless he's an idiot he knows that pregnancy is a risk when you have sex.

He has the choice to abstain.

The kids are still wearing hand-me-down clothing from their cousins. I appreciate not everybody has that available, but we're the sort of people that would happily buy children's clothes at jumble sales, charity shops, etc. My eldest son wears second hand school uniform (immaculate and only £1 an item). We buy Clarke's shoes in the sales (£22.50 for the last pair). Our biggest regular expense is currently weekly swimming lessons

Yeah. Good for you. When my ex left I needed wraparound care for 3 children at a cost of around £900 a month and a starting teacher’s salary that was then £21k or around £1.2k a month. So get real about what children cost. You might be fine on £97k but your wife paying childcare so she can earn her £49k won’t be.

The fact he used the phrase ‘hands on’ says it all. Never heard a mother described that way!

Yes, that's what they are mansplaining to us. How unreasonable of us to be sceptical of their uninformed and often quite fantastical beliefs. It must be because we're bitter hags who hate men and wear sensible shoes.

Where do I even start with all the (bigoted man) hatred, misrepresentations and lies about what I've said?

@Anonym00se
a) Our lived experiences are bollocks.
* I never commented on anybody's lived experience. I have been replying to man hating posts that claimed 'a man couldn't even do it for a day' and other such tripe. There has been a single dad commenting to say that he managed just fine on their own. I guess his lived experience means nothing once your man hating is in full flow.

b) Our extortionate childcare costs were/are “hypothetical”.
\* My family's childcare costs are hypothetical. I never claimed to speak for anybody else. I notice you do, through, with your use of 'our'.

c) Children over the age of 2 are EASY(!!) to raise single-handedly, despite this poster’s only experience being a few hours a day when his wife was working - and even then for only a few days at a time. And never having to deal with a suicidal teen, or two teens that eat you out of house and home, or an autistic 12 year old that’s school refusing, or all of the above plus having to work 9-5.30 then pick up the kids and take them home, feed them, do homework, and get them to bed before you can even begin the housework - every day, forever.
\* I never commented on raising them single-handedly. I was replying to @Kinshipug that said that dad's need the help of Saint Mum 'to facilitate their attempts at trying/pretending to do half'.

d) Children are CHEAP to raise - if you live in Scandinavia where childcare costs tuppence ha’penny per month, or you deprive your children of the means to complete their schoolwork and dress them from charity shops and never take them for days out.
* Why the lies? I commented on the supposed average cost of £950-£1050 p/m per child. I absolutely stand by my assertion that this average is distorted by childcare costs, private school fees, university costs, ponies, etc. Mums have also commented to say that figure is bullshit because for their three children it is more than the family's entire take home salary. I guess their lived experiences can be discarded as well...

e) that 15% of a father’s is plenty if the state make up the rest in UC. So a man’s kids are the responsibility of the taxpayer, not the man.
\* Maybe you need to actually read what I've written? I said that given how generous the UK's UC payments are for single RPs, is 15% of NET salary actually that bad? The OP is getting £360 p/m in maintenance. She is equally responsible for funding her child, so that suggests a total expenditure of £720 p/m on top of all the benefits that the OP is claiming*. £720 is way more than we spend on both our children. When you factor in the Child Benefit of £115 per month, it is only £100 less than that magic 'average' figure of £950 that is being tossed around. Is the OP really being oppressed by the patriarchy or is it actually a fairly reasonable amount when seen as a top-up to UC?

Before you start throwing insults regarding childcare costs, I have repeatedly said that NRP should pay 50% of the RP's childcare costs.

@FatmanandKnobbin

I do think that the mythical 'mental load' is massively overblown on mumsnet. It is usually mundane shit that normal people just do - e.g. meal planning, buying shoes, replying to a party invitation, taking a child to the doctor, etc.

I also do consider my children much easier to look after now they're able to speak, understand instructions, walk without smashing their heads into coffee tables and all that early toddler stuff. Why the insistence that it's so, so, very difficult?

I would say you are one of those arsehole dad's, the worst kind actually because you seem to want a medal for doing less than the minimum for your own kids.

To be honest, I'm starting to think that maybe I'm doing too much. My assertions that I change sheets, buy kid's shoes, clothes, nappies, stock a fridge, plan some dinners, etc, is met with claims that I must be lying! Fucking hell.... You all must be really, really shit at picking partners, if you can't believe that a man is actually capable of taking ownership of these mundane tasks. Get this, I also do 100% of the driving because my wife finds it 'too stressful'. Does that count as 'mental load' for me?

But of course, only Saint Mum can ever contribute to running a home!

__

@NonPlayerCharacter

It's almost funny how a person can poo poo looking after any child over the age of 2 as easy and not realise that this is a glaring sign that they either don't do it to any significant level or are truly shite at it.

Or maybe you're just shit at it, if you find it that difficult? Just a thought that seems it could be as equally valid as your insult.
_

@notbelieved

You haven't said how recently you needed wraparound care, but given that salary and having three kids you'd now qualify for absolutely shitloads of UC and free childcare hours. Would you care to share your actual 'take home' money? If this happened recently, I suspect it would actually be the equivalent of earning £60k+ when you factor in housing benefit, etc.

_

@XChrome Welcome to the party. Please read the thread and it might make more sense rather than just relying upon @Anonym00se's misrepresentations of what I've actually said.

In the words of my favorite mumsnet man, who is sadly no longer with us - LOL.
Not going to pretend I've read that whole spiel, but the dedication to putting us ladies right is admirable. Must have taken ages. Hope your kids are alright.

They're sleeping happily while my wife works late. Zero drama.

@ThisOldThang

I wouldn't have bothered starting anywhere.

It's tedious and you're boring.

You've got some hurty feelings because we aren't all bowing down to you for being amazing, when you're simply average.

You don't need anyone on here to inflate your ego for you, seems someone, somewhere, has done a good enough job of that already.

You don't get it because you have a partner there taking care of all the shit that you don't do while you're off wagging your willy in the mirror and telling yourself that women all hate you for no reason at all.

Bore off.

It’s really unhelpful to have men derail the thread when they’re not single parenting. I wouldn’t have an issue if a man was explaining how he financially managed after separation but this isn’t the case. A man working full time and a woman part time with no childcare costs and both contributing to ONE household has nothing to do with the issue of how parents financially navigate 2 homes and parenting their children.

@YOYOK

A completely fair comment and it's not been my intention to derail the thread - but the casual sexism, insults and ludicrous assertions have, IMHO, needed to be challenged.

@ThisOldThang

I didn’t say “a man couldn’t do it for a day”. I said “I don’t know a man who could do it for a day”. It doesn’t matter a jot if strangers tell me they can. I don’t know them from Adam. I’m not denying their experience, I have merely stated my own, and I stand by my statement. No man that I know personally could do it for a day.

You have no experience of parenting any child older than a toddler, so you can’t say whether it’s easy or not to parent any child older than a toddler. But you seem strangely adamant that you are correct. I suspect if you remember this thread in ten years time, you might feel a bit of a wally.

Regarding your other points, re mental load and stuff you do around the house - you are spectacularly missing the point that you currently SHARE that load with your wife. If you were doing it alone you’d not only be doubling your workload, but you’d carry the additional weight of knowing that there was nobody there to catch the falling plates when you drop them. It’s all on you, every bit of it. Every minute of every day. It’s an enormous load, and the fact that you’re so utterly dismissive of that shows you haven’t got a clue.

Nothing 'fortunate' about receiving the bare minimum of £350 in maintenance for the child that you parent the majority of the time.

I get £11 via CMS per month for twins - he also has 4 other children by his first wife - because he is on UC.

All the while, he works cash in hand, goes on 3 foreign holidays a year, buys himself the latest tech/gadgets and is apparently out several times a week, eating out with his much younger girlfriend.

Strangely, I'm not actually bitter and I absolutely do not jump on any resident parent who receives a fair amount of maintenance.

I just think "Crazycatlady", you have 2 beautiful, glorious children (and 4 wonderful former step-children, whose Mum I get along with and whose lives you are still involved in), but MY GOD, why did you have to choose such an arrant fucktard as a Sperm Donor (Father)?!"

@Crazycatlady79 Can you grass him up for tax evasion? It would appear to be an open and shut case of 'unexplained wealth'.

Ah yes! No woman has ever thought of just grassing them up before! What a revelation!

I have read it and am not new to the thread. We've actually spoken on this thread before.
Nobody said it was all about you specifically, so no need to respond to each point as if it was aimed at you. There has been more than one dad on here. Frankly, it's getting so I can't tell the dads on here apart, but I'm not going to accuse you of saying something you didn't say.

Roll on the male pill, of course they'll never invent it because it'll end with all out war between men and women.

@ThisOldThang

Sorry I forgot to address your “hypothetical childcare” comment. You’ve repeatedly said that the figures for raising children are “skewed” by childcare costs, and that your costs are lower because your wife works part time so you don’t have any childcare costs.

You are posting on a thread about single mothers raising children without maintenance payments. So most won’t have the luxury of a SAH partner they can leave the kids with. We have to work, and therefore we have to pay childcare costs. Or maybe we should leave them wandering round unsupervised downstairs once they’re 2, while we go out to work, eh? Our costs are NOT hypothetical. It doesn’t matter a shiny shite what your situation because that’s not our situation. Full-time childcare is £12,000 - £24,000 a year depending on where in the country you live, yet you’re incredulous at the £9K figure for raising a child.

It’s already been invented but men didn’t want to take it as it gave them spots in the trials. Which is obvs worse than the increased risk of cancers and blood clots that women face from it 🙄

You have no experience of parenting any child older than a toddler, so you can’t say whether it’s easy or not to parent any child older than a toddler. But you seem strangely adamant that you are correct.

I said it was easier to look after a 2+ year old than a child younger than 2. I've received nothing but insults for that assertion, but it is, as they say, my truth... (My eldest if 5 by the way, so he's not a toddler, and he's even easier than the 2 year old - e.g. he can wipe his own arse and request what he wants/needs. I expect things will get harder when they hit puberty).

Regarding your other points, re mental load and stuff you do around the house - you are spectacularly missing the point that you currently SHARE that load with your wife.

Yes and she's sharing it with me. My flippancy was aimed at some of the 'impossible for a man to do' examples listed in this thread rather than the reality of being a sole earner, in an insecure job, with no savings to provide a buffer between housing and homelessness. I certainly wouldn't wish to dismiss that type of mental load. It can't be much fun. I'm just not convinced that managing a child's diary, remembering to buy food/clothes/shoes and change the sheets really qualifies as a major thing.

_ Edit _

Full-time childcare is £12,000 - £24,000 a year depending on where in the country you live, yet you’re incredulous at the £9K figure for raising a child.

I'm not 'incredulous' at the £9k £11,400 figure. I've simply said that it is distorted by the costs of childcare, private school fees, etc. For those RPs that no longer need fulltime childcare, the per child cost can be brought down to a far lower figure - which has been confirmed by women on this thread and is my experience because we don't need to pay for childcare!

Childcare vouchers are £1k p/m for the first child, which would completely cover £12k. I've also stated again and again and again that the NRP should pay 50% of childcare costs. That would be £500 per month for childcare costing £24k once the childcare vouchers are factored in. Whether that's affordable for some dads is debateable and perhaps there does need to be a system of government backed/managed loans to ensure the RP receives the money and then the NRP has it clawed back over a longer period.

Well there's always abstaining for women as well.

I don’t think anyone can deny there are plenty of men who parent equally and who, upon separation, continue to be an equal parent in every sense of the word. I have a relative who is an excellent father and he has his children equally and pays some maintenance as he was always the higher earner. It is a very amicable relationship. The parents don’t particularly like each other but they tolerate each other and even have Christmas lunches and go out for the occasional dinner.

Unfortunately, statistically, men - as a group - are more likely to parent less than 50:50 and to pay less. It isn’t sexist to point out that many men don’t want to be equal and choose not to be, or even pretend they are parenting when they’re just not. It doesn’t take away from those excellent fathers but it’s a minority of men who are equals. Men are more than capable of parenting equally if they choose.

It is always going to be financially challenging to run 2 homes on 2 incomes if you’re used to running 1 home on 2 incomes. Quality of life will change for the parents and it will be harder. I do think parents should minimise the changes to their children as much as is possible though. Appreciate some changes will have to be made but parents who expect their lifestyle to remain the same are misguided.

@ThisOldThang sounds malicious - and, is realistically - I've reported him to DWP, DVLA, HMRC and the police for his criminal activity, but no 'positive' outcome as yet.
I don't understand why he hasn't been 'caught out', even with documented evidence, but he always seems able to charm his way out of things.
What's sad is that, despite everything, I care about him as an human being and as the Father of 6 amazing children, but he places others at rusk by a lot of his behaviours/activities, including all the children at various points over the years.
I don't even care about the lack of maintenance per se, as I give my DC as good a life as I can within my means; I think it's just the blatant flouting of any and all laws that don't suit his designs and the toll it takes on those around/related to him.

You haven't said how recently you needed wraparound care, but given that salary and having three kids you'd now qualify for absolutely shitloads of UC and free childcare hours. Would you care to share your actual 'take home' money? If this happened recently, I suspect it would actually be the equivalent of earning £60k+ when you factor in housing benefit, etc

I qualified for a shitliaf ofvtax credit back innthe day. But the point was, for many of us, our children need care prior to us being able to work. Your figures were, at best, disingenuous.

Oh, and I own my own home, outright. I don't qualify for housing benefit. Never have.