AIBU to want a highflying career as well as being a Mum?

[ManhattanMama]

I've only been back at work for 2 weeks and am already having conflicts between work and homelife which I'm struggling to resolve. I work in investment banking, and before having DS (nearly 7 mths old), I used to work 8am - 6.30pm at a minimum, usually longer. Obviously I've already cut back on my hours, and am generally doing 8.30 to 5.30 which just about leaves me enough to time to dash to daycare to pick DS up before 6.30 (I have to take 2 trains to get there).

The problem I've got is that my job just isn't a predictable 9-5 kind of role - things happen which mean that I may have to start early or work late. I've been asked to take part in a Women in Banking mentoring program which means I'm committed to being at work late every Thursday for the next 6 weeks - I asked DH before agreeing whether he was happy for me to do it and he said yes but (surprise, surprise) - the first time I'm home late and he's in a real strop with me because he had to get all of DS's stuff ready for daycare and do the late night feed by himself. He was literally ignoring me this morning as he was so annoyed, so I had it out with him and he said "Now you're a mum you should be happy to just turn up and do the 9-5 then get home to be with our son, not spending time networking and trying to be the career woman".

AIBU or is this completely out of order? Why can I not have a career AND be a good mum? I've worked my rear end off to get to the position I have at the moment and I don't want to do a half-arsed job now just because I have a baby. Things aren't being helped by the fact that everytime I talk to my Mum she says "DS must be finding it so hard only seeing you for an hour a day" - she gave up work to have kids and thinks I should do the same.

What do you think? AIB selfish to want to keep working even though we can afford for me to stop? Career aside, I don't think I could cope with being home with DS all day - it's much harder than working!

Sorry it's so long...

apologies for the lousy spelling and grammar on my post - am typing in the dark (too lazy to get up and turn the light on

Have you thought about employing someone for a couple of hours every evening - perhaps to do some housework, laundry etc and then if necessary they could pick up your DC from nursery - even if you did it for a couple of days a week it would probably relieve the pressure a bit.

I haven't read all of the posts, so apologies if I'm repeating what others have said.

My dc are now in their teens. I've worked fulltime since they were both a few months old. Dc1 was in daycare, then when dc2 came along we had a nanny. That took a big chunk of our salaries - almost all of dh's in fact...I'm the main breadwinner.

However, there's no doubt my career would not have taken off if I'd tried to be part-time or skimped on the kind of childcare we needed to enable us to carry out our jobs.

I'm now in a dream job with lots of autonomy and flexibility...but I've no doubt that's because I was able to put in the hours and gain varied experience at a crucical stage in my career when the dc were small. I still work longish hours, but can work from home when I need to.

What I'm saying in a long-winded way, is that I think you have to be prepared to stretch yourself childcare-wise if you want to have a great career and a family.

There's no point either of you being stressed or it putting a strain on your marriage...go for absolutely the best and most suitable childcare you can afford, and in your case, I'd agree with others that that would appear to be a nanny. The cost might be large, but it's an investment in your futures.

My dc are now old enough to quiz about how they felt about their childcare. Dc1 loved the daycare, dc2 didn't (she was with the nanny initially, then a CM/daycare split after the nanny left).

But both now appear to be happy, well-adjusted and confident children who are doing well at school and have lots of friends. I feel we've both been good role models for them, and they're thrilled with my present job, which is still quite new, and in their eyes 'cool'.

Good luck.

You sound happy with the daycare and the nanny situation is different in NY, so stick with it. Why not see which of the nursery nurses your ds attaches himself to and befriend her - that way you can pay her to take him home if required. I do that from time to time at my nursery and it works very well. They are more than happy to earn some extra money ime.

Your dh needs training! I had to start leaving lists paperclipped to the bags listing what goes in. Have a shelf in the cupboard for "nursery clothes" and pair them so tops/trousers/socks etc. are together in groups. After a while they get it - he may not be being difficult, he may genuinely find it overwhelming.

Leave a bag at nursery with spare clothes, hat, gloves, socks and a jacket. Don't ever take this home unless it is used or they have grown out of it - reduce your workload!

I do personally agree that it is (almost) impossible to have it all. My dh travels so much and my job involved travelling too. I didn't want a nanny so left my job and now work for myself. But it is possible and far better to have good childcare and a successful career than a half-baked career kidding yourself it is worth it.

I have always suspected American men were much more sexist than Englishmen because of the traditional Christian religious ethos out there, women submitting to men in a biblical sense and women kind of being more into looks and hooking a man than British women but I may be wrong.

if one career has to go why not let it be the man's because that's more important in terms of sexual politics isn't it, than yet another woman's career biting the dust on the altar of male supremacy,

xenia you have been talking utter sense this whole thread........ and then you had to go and blow it

Xenia, many American men are Jewish, or of other faiths or none.

Not exactly. More people believe in the literal truth of the bible in the US than don't for a start (no evolution etc). But I might be wrong - they may be as likely to muck in with childcare and domestic chores as the average British father perhaps. I hope so. It should not be a question for women asking. It should be discussed before you marry and accepted it's 50/50.

Its strange, if you had a message about a mum complaining that her husband worked excessively long hours then there would be lots of synpathy.

I think that 8.30 to 5.30 five days a week is quite enough hours to work. Assuming that you take an hour for lunch its a 40 hour week. I think your husband is reasonable saying that you should not work more than 40 hours a week.

If you want to work longer hours occassionally have you thought about employing an Au pair. The Au pair could pick your child up from nusery and do a lot of the house work so that you can quality time as a family.

Only if the husband is applying the same number of hours to himself. If not he's being a sexist pig!

RT she is an investment banker - ergo long hours

I am a recruitment consultant and my contracted hours are 8.30 - 6, although I often do 8 - 6 5 days a week, Now you coudl say I should cut down or find another job, however sales roles mean that the more hours you do the more you earn, If I changed jobs to do shorter hours then I would earn significantly less. I am the main breadwinner so that equation wouldn't work,

I am planning in a year or two to renegotiate to cut something, even if it is one half day a month so I can ick up from school. However we like to pay our mortgage so much less will not work

Oh ffs Icouldbenancy are we not BEYOND those facile, stupid arguments? On MN ffs!

Don't know about relative male chauvinism in States - not really noticed anything specifically different. But of course it is absolutely true that US labour practices/principles are fundamentally different (try comparing a US employment contract with a European one, or better yet, trying explaining to your American client that, er, no, you can't employ your UK personnel under a contract governed by Illinois law & with the kind of holiday (non-)entitlement that is the norm there!) - and I think it's that which underlines MMama's difficulties - hence the irony of mentoring women by cutting yet further into your chances to get work & life in balance.

I don't agree with anyone working more than 40 hours a week unless its an emergency. The UK has too much of a long hours culture. My first job I worked 45 hours a week, but my second job I only worked 35 hours a week. The second job did not allow over time and you needed permission to stay late.

I found that I got more done in the job with shorter hours. I had to be focussed as I had no time to daydream or take lots of cofee breaks. Also my quality of work was higher as I was less tired.

I don't think MMama should be mentoring women. Its not saying that she shouldn't work full time, but surely having a husband and a baby is important as well as having a career. I also disagree with men working excessive hours whatever job they are doing.

The problem is that many young single people work silly hours, so it becomes company expectations. It should not be the number of hours you do but the quality of work.

I suppose at the end of the day if you're good enough you can go and work for yourself or elsewhere or dictate your terms. Heard about one Italian lawyer head hunted to work in another town in Italy. He says to his new employer he cannot possible start work ever until 11am as he needs an hour to get up and ready in the morning and has to get up late. They accept his terms because they need him.

If you bring in more business than anyone else and other rivals are trying to hire you then the hours you work often don't really matter that much. But not all jobs are that kind. I know my elder daughter and her friends are expecting to work very long hours once work starts in their early - mid 20s but I am not sure they all want to continue like that as time goes on.

I think that long hours are ridiculous for anyone and hate the culture that says you should stay late to be doing your job well. It is only a job and everyone needs a work/life balance. I don't think that you should be working long hours when you start, you are much more likely to be more efficient if you have the time to read, go for a walk, run a Cub pack etc.You should certainly have time at least some days a week to get home in time to see your DC before they go to bed (men and women).
I know someone who went to work somewhere far more laid back (I think it might have been the Isle of Man)and was amazed, people sat in the car and read the paper if they arrived early for work and at 5.30pm they all went home. Far healthier IMO.

I know someone in the public sector - this I hope is not typical - where they saunter in 30 minutes later or more and no one in that department stays late. They aren't very well paid but the hours are reasonable.

Xenia,

if you do your job properly and you organise your time well then you don't necessily have to stay late.

When I worked in the private sector a lot of the people who were staying late were those who did not organise their time properly.

When I worked for the civil service you were not allowed to work late without strong reason. There were security men with really scary guard dogs that walked round the building after 6pm. The building was also highly alarmed because the particular establishment did animal experiments.

Not having the option of staying late meant that people had to concentrate and not day dream. There was no option of long lunches or chatting to work collegues.

I got more done in the time in the civil service job than the the private sector.

why do investment bankers do long hours? what do they do?

Genuine question

because they have to get in early (my sister's bf is in work at 5.50am) to read the papers and to get a briefing on what has happened in the markets overnight in the US. Then they have their early morning briefings before the markets open. Then once the markets open they are on it all day doing what they do, having to act on market movements as they happen.

However by early afternoon it is all winding down and most i know are home 5.30/6. Still a 12 hour day though.

And others of course will then have a load of analysis, meeting notes, briefing packs, reports etc. to write up for their clients after the market closes.

I don't think their's is so much of a "long hours culture" i think it is more of a you keep dealing til the market is closed. But they are incredibly well paid, it's a very competitive industry and most only do it for 15-20 years.

Sometimes in many different of these "extreme jobs" you need to be there (or at the end of a phone) because of time differences. If I am working on something with the US then things shift forward to evening but that doesn't mean your morning work suddenly conveniently disappears. Some bankers and lawyers and other advisers are doing deals. Sometimes the client wants to start the meeting at 5 so they've done a day of their normal work first which of course most of us don't like but if some one is paying you God knows how much per hour you tend to fall in with that. There are hundreds of other people they could use if you refuse to start a meeting at 5 - market forces.

Or you work on urgent deals all the time like Northern Rock or something and you're told on Thursay this deal must be done by Monday and people will work sometimes all night, no sleep, 24 hour shift or get 2 hours sleep. It's no harder than being at home with a screaming baby except it's arguably more fun and you get paid a lot more. All students know most of these points about various jobs if they're clued up - so they might well pick job X because they can leave work on time and yob Y because they want a smart car and flat and want the money or whatever.

In the case of the OP I am surprised that they didn't discuss careers before they had a DC. The main problem seems to be that her DP seems to have assumed that she would either stay at home or would down grade her job to part time-he doesn't seem willing to downgrade his. IMO both parents can only work at that level if they employ a nanny. My DH works long hours-he left at 7am and won't return until 7pm (or later if the traffic is bad). I only work part time, which doesn't bother me because I have never been ambitious anyway, but if I had wanted to progress in my career we would have needed reliable back up. Someone has to be available to put the DC first.
You have to fast forward a few years and think what you would do if you are both in high level meetings and you get the phone call from school to say that your DC has fallen off a climbing frame, has a suspected broken arm and one of you need to come to school now and take them to A & E. One of you has to be able to put the DC above work (unless you delegate a nanny).

Ok, have skimmed through. MM, I have worked in NY and won't bang on about nannies because it is not the same over there.

Yes, you can have it all but you and DH need to learn three lessons very very quickly (the quicker you learn the healthier it will be for your marriage)

1. Your DH needs to understand that parenting is joint. Most men I know have worked out that if they do a chore poorly ten times in a row, then wife will give up and do it herself. Oh for a pound every time the words "No matter what I do it is never good enough" comes out from blokes the world over. The answer? Too right, mate, it isn't good enough. Get a grip, pull your finger out and make a 50% effort towards organising home, childcare, shopping, xmas presents, and everything else that comes on top of working. I see men at work successfully multi-tasking, day in, day out. Amazing that. God knows why they think they can get away with switching off the minute they walk through the door every evening. If men can do a job properly at work, they can do it at home. And that includes ALL aspects of childcare and not just the fun bits. Get out a piece of paper and carve up the chores if it helps.

2. If you both want to have careers you both need to ensure that your needs for some flexibility are understood by your bosses. Accept that half your annual leave is going to be chewed up by taking half days off here and there to cover trips to dr, sickness and so on. Sit down and verbally agree to take it in turns to take the time off (within reason of course, you will have different work commitments at different times). These bugs and suchlike fall off after a few months and your subsequent children pick up immunity from their siblings so you only feel the pain badly with the first one. Just prepare for it and don't let it faze you. Ideally you should also try to agree a timeplan that builds in 'me' time for each of you every week - be it an evening off for each of you midweek or a lie-in on a Saturday or whatever. Plan for it and accept that ALL OTHER TIMES are family-time - so no sloping off outside these times and leaving the other person holding baby and fuming. without me-time beign anticipated and built in to your lives (and planned for) you will probably both crack and at very least get ratty with each other.

3. You no longer have enough hours in the day. Accept it and accept that you have to let some things go. The easiest thigns to get rid of are stuff like housework, after that you have to take a good look at how you spend the rest of your time. If your company wants you to be a mummymentor then make sure they take up the time pain by fitting it into the working day. You won't get any real credit for doing this so only continue if it is meeting some philanthropic urge in you. Otherwise drop it. You can take it up later. you have to concentrate on yourself and your family first. Think about one or other of you doing 4 days a week for a year or so, if this is what is needed to maintain some feelign that you are not both at bursting point 24/7 (see how it goes for a while, then maybe discuss)

There are really really great things about being a mum and having a career. You may come to a revalation in about 3 months time that you really really don't honest-to-god care quite so much about your work. I don't mean that you won't work just as hard or perform just as well, but when it comes to those big big deals and they fall through, you kind of don't get the same lows you had before, you get a much better perspective on stuff (and believe me, it is a great great space to get to). It makes you a much more chilled working person (but just as effective) Lots of my career friends (I also work in investment banking) feel the same and it is like a weight being lifted off you. That's the good part. The bad part is that you only maintain sanity by being so completely organised that the term 'control-freak' ends up sounding ooo, not so bad at all (even a compliment, almost ). Your DH needs to get to the same place.

Your DH's attitude at the moment completely sucks and you need to deal with it. He married you for what you are and not for your ability to be a good mum. If he wants you to be the same intelligent and go-gettign woman (or whatever) that you were before then he needs to accept that you can't maintain all of that and at the same time reinvent yourself as Mother Earth. Just doesn't happen. You end up hating yourself and he ends up having an affair with someone fun at work who reminds him of how his wife used to be before she 'changed'. You need to have one of those big talks to get him back on track. If he doesn't change attitude then you have bigger issues but it's probably more likely that he went into the whole baby thing a bit blinkered and didn't realise all the stuff involved. Tough titty. Baby is here and he needs to change his attitude and deal with it. As I said before, if he can cope with changes and stresses at work, he can adapt at home. Just as you have had to adapt.

Oh and I forgot the 4th lesson - get a very thick skin about all the 'I don't know why you bothered having a kid in the first place' bollox. If a child has happy parents and consistency of care and quality of care then said child will turn out fine. Rather that than being brought up by a resentful mum who feels she has thrown her life away. When your kid comes home exhausted and happy from that brilliant school your salaries have afforded him which 100% suits his character and stretches him (or gives him extra attention that he might need, or whatever), you really don't give a shit for all the people who stand around tutting at your working career choices.

Good luck.

Thanks for that explanation - makes sense to have to be there v v early; and I guess (big deals apart) there are lots of them who get home at 10pm because they've been down the wine bar after

AbbeyA I totally agree with you. Jobs/priorities just have to be discussed and agreed and one parent does need to put the child above the job UNLESS you go down the nanny route. Totally agree.

And in fact, even IF you go down the nanny route, it's still IMO far better for the child if they feel they are number one in at least one parent's life. Bit sad only to be number one in a nanny's life, though that can be good loving care.