To think it’s a lot of mental effort to keep up with gender these days?

[Oodiks]

My 18 yo daughter recently started work at a pizza place and she’s been telling me how much more she likes this place than the last pizza place she worked at.

She didn’t want to bring food home from the first place, partly because she didn’t trust the industrial pizza dough that came on pallets, but mostly because it was all teenage boys working there and they didn’t wear gloves to prepare the food. The new place is better because they do wear gloves to prepare the food and it’s not all teenage boys.

I was a little confused, because all the names she’s mentioned, pretty much, are boy’s names, Milo is the only one I remember, but it’s all been boy’s names except for one person with a girl’s name, who she calls her work best friend. I comment and she’s, like, OMG, don’t make assumptions, it’s a very gender diverse place. But she does agree that females tend to be more hygiene aware, and we leave it like that.

But it leaves me uncomfortable. She clearly knows that these ‘boys’ are in fact girls, but can’t bring herself to say it, although she acknowledges by saying that these ‘boys’ are clean whereas she didn’t trust the ‘other boys’ to wash their hands.

What kind of mental gymnastics does that take?

The thread title says you think it’s a lot of mental gymnastics to ‘keep up’ with gender.

I agree it may take work to begin with, but honestly after about a week of referring to my non-binary friend as ‘they’ it just became second nature.

If I was a marathon runner and told you it was a lot of work to keep it up would you assume I couldn’t do it?

I never said you couldn’t keep up with it, I’ve just said from my experience I don’t understand how someone would find it difficult. If I had your experiences perhaps I would find it difficult to keep up with, we’re all different and I was only sharing my own opinion.

That’s nice

On, let me explain. My school friend was born a female. He transitioned in the late twenties/early thirties. He looks like a man and uses pronouns "he", he has male name, male anatomy, facial hair and is married to a woman. For all intents and purposes he looks and feels himself to be a man. Now, as his friends we, obviously, didn't forget that he lived as a woman for 30 years and we do often speak about how taking male hormone affects his health and longevity. He is not pretending to not have been born a female and not carrying certain traits that would be, stereotypically, attributed to women. However, it takes precisely zero mental gymnastics to acknowledge that biological sex and gender are different things which are not mutually exclusive. And we, as his friends, don't have the need to remind him that he was born a woman and insist that he refers to this fact in every conversation. To put it simply, he is and always will be a HUMAN to us.

@Buddysbunda Agree, I'd be far more concerned if I thought the younger generation truly believe that you can change sex

In fact, i think that we all know perfectly well that (1) male and female is binary, (2) gender expectations are a barrier to equality and (3) Isla Bryson is a man, male and should never have been allowed in a women's prison

I gently drip feed to my kids that, IMHO, gender theory actually reinforces gender stereotypes eg want to wear a dress = must be a woman, like football = must be a man etc. Better to allow people to live how they like, within reason eg Bob wants to wear a dress, no problem, but he shouldn't be competing against women in the swimming

The amount of effort you have put into this pointless thread is crazy.

Simple solution to clear you confused self and ease this mental gymnastics

"DD what gender are the people you work with? Are any of them trans or non-binary?"

I'm old, think 50s, and certainly not confused about this nonsense. Having been on the receiving end of a toddler tantrum at the age of 24 (his age, a stranger) because I inadvertently misgendered him I now just say his name, Sarah.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.

Honestly, if you care about your friends it’s no gymnastics at all.

I have non-binary friends, who use “they” usually. It’s really not hard to use they (in English at least, a lot harder in languages that are so gendered and don’t really have a gender neutral option) but it’s really not that big of a deal at all. Once you know it’s really no different than “she” or “he.”

For me it’s the same with people who have a complicated first name or last name from a different culture (my case). You always have a bunch of people who will never ever bother to learn it and will always act like it’s the most complicated thing in the world that they can’t possible learn to pronounce “that” and will shorten it for you (for their convenience, ahem!). And then you have the rest, the ones who care enough to actually take the time to learn something that seems hard at first because they know it’s who you are and care to respect your identity.

I spent my whole childhood with people butchering my last name. So it’s no effort to me to learn people’s names, last names pronouns or anything important to them about them. It doesn’t impact me if Janine is now Jake and wants me to call him “he”. I am under no illusion that Jake was ever born male but if male pronouns and being called Jake makes a friend more comfortable and more in tune with who they are then, of course, I will do that. Language evolve permanently. So many words my teenage siblings use I have no clue of. And yet, somehow, if I pause and learn, I have no issue whatsoever understanding and learning them (even if they make little sense to me) so why would it be hard to use words that already exist to describe someone in a way that make them feel most comfortable and has zero impact on me?

if I were your daughter I also wouldn’t go into details about how “I work with Jordan but actually born Mary” because it’s none of your business. She knows this person as Jordan she doesn’t need to know what was on their birth certificate. The sibling of my current partner is trans (female at birth), I have only very recently heard his birth name, but I would never use it nor use “she”. Why? Because I have never been introduced to him by his birth name nor have I ever heard anyone refer to him as “she.”. So to me in my mind he is the name I have always known him as and the pronouns I have always used and will always use will be “he” because that’s who he is to me (and yes I am aware of his natural biology) but his identity at birth really doesn’t matter to
me.

The same way I have female friends who don’t like their first name and go for a complete different Nickname or Asian friends who ask me to call them by an English name instead of their birth name. Who cares. It doesn’t matter what identity they were given at birth, I care more about who they are now and if Natasha prefers to be known as Nati or Fēn as Claire then that’s how I’ll call them because I really don’t need to get out of my way to insist they stick to something they have never had a choice in in the first place. People didn’t get to pick their name nor the words people would use to refer to them at birth so I think it’s fair if, as they grow, they realize that actually other another names and another way to be referred as suit them better.

Creating a welcoming and supportive environment for my friends is no mental gymnastics, whether they are changing their first name because they hate it, are scared of people butchering it, or feel like it doesn’t suit them/they are born in the wrong body etc…

@llamajohn Basic food hygiene practice in every food business. Gloves, hair nets, regular hand washing. I would be horrified if someone didn't use gloves in a fast food, short order environment.

It sounds like your daughter obviously thinks and knows her colleagues are female. However they prefer to be referred and though as male.

Fine.

Which loos do they use?

Cos men are still dangerous even if you decide you are in their club now, and if they know you are female you are their prey.

That's lovely. And how does the rest of the world treat your friend. Is your friend accepted in male spaces and paid as much as a man, does he benefit from male privilege?

Also, if you really think your friend is anatomically the same as a male born person you are extremely naive.

It's kind of irrelevant because they have single occupancy unisex bathrooms where she works.

The gloves thing is mixed honestly. Proper handwashing is better; wearing gloves can give the wearer a false sense of safety, but they are only protecting themselves.

It’s not that hard. You find out by asking and then go with the answer. It’s only complicated or exhausting if you’re lazy or stupid. It’s not that hard to resist making generic assumptions. Just say “they” or use their name until you know for sure.

Many names are unisex and it’s been fashionable to give girls more masculine names for decades.

They is a perfectly fine and normal way to describe a person of unknown gender.
I went to the doctor today about my arm.
Oh what did they say about your arm?
My colleague Sam is so unhygienic
You should them to wash their hands.

How does it pertain to your initial enquiry? Was it just a disingenuous post to further some anti-trans agenda?
I expect my friend enjoys most of male privileges and I am very well aware of the anatomical differences, details of which are beyond the scope of this post. So what's your point, exactly?

@Oodiks I can imagine if someone chooses not to change gloves and wash in between it's grosser than just plain washed hands.
I was taught you should wear them when I did food hygeine level 2, when I worked in a kitchen.

How is she?

No-one should have to tolerate this aggression, if they want a pronoun then 'it' covers all bases, the Germans are so lucky, er, sie, es.

I choose not to get drawn into this silly game. It’s attention seeking nonsense.
There a two genders. End of.

"She clearly knows that these ‘boys’ are in fact girls, but can’t bring herself to say it, although she acknowledges by saying that these ‘boys’ are clean whereas she didn’t trust the ‘other boys’ to wash their hands ... But she does agree that females tend to be more hygiene aware, and we leave it like that"

There are 2 sexes and gender is a cultural construct 😄

Okay, what does your adult transman story have to do with my daughter's situation with teenagers?

No

I know quite a lot of clean boys. None of them were ever anything else. Being GC then fixating on gender stereotypes is a bit odd.