To think it’s a lot of mental effort to keep up with gender these days?

[Oodiks]

My 18 yo daughter recently started work at a pizza place and she’s been telling me how much more she likes this place than the last pizza place she worked at.

She didn’t want to bring food home from the first place, partly because she didn’t trust the industrial pizza dough that came on pallets, but mostly because it was all teenage boys working there and they didn’t wear gloves to prepare the food. The new place is better because they do wear gloves to prepare the food and it’s not all teenage boys.

I was a little confused, because all the names she’s mentioned, pretty much, are boy’s names, Milo is the only one I remember, but it’s all been boy’s names except for one person with a girl’s name, who she calls her work best friend. I comment and she’s, like, OMG, don’t make assumptions, it’s a very gender diverse place. But she does agree that females tend to be more hygiene aware, and we leave it like that.

But it leaves me uncomfortable. She clearly knows that these ‘boys’ are in fact girls, but can’t bring herself to say it, although she acknowledges by saying that these ‘boys’ are clean whereas she didn’t trust the ‘other boys’ to wash their hands.

What kind of mental gymnastics does that take?

I'm simply reporting what my daughter, who is and always has been female btw, said to me.

She's been telling me about work and using male names and pronouns about her co-workers, and then last night she told me how great it was that she 'didn't have to work with teenage boys anymore' and when questioned told me the place was 'gender diverse', but we also agreed that females tend to be more hygienic.

And yes, of course there are gross girls and fastidious boys, but we notice them because they do not conform to the norm.

Oh no it isn't!

You've literally described a situation where your daughter works with a mix of men and women, some teenage and some a bit older, and has told you about it, and you've imagined a whole series of things: that "gender diverse" means "lots of trans people" not "a mix of genders", that "not having to work with teenage boys anymore" means "every single person at the old work was a teenage boy and every single person at the new work is not a boy or man of any age", and that the people at her new work that your daughter mentioned include every single person who works there.

Do you honestly believe that your daughter works at a pizza place staffed entirely, with two exceptions, by trans men?

This is "I'm going to wipe my hands on my penis" all over again.

I've no idea what you're referring to with, "I'm going to wipe my hands on my penis," but you do you.

Meanwhile.

My daughter and I have previously talked about the fact that the last place was all teenage boys apart from one older dude who gave her the creeps. She's also previously spoken about the fact that the new place is staffed entirely by teenagers, with a manager who's maybe 20 at most.

So, it's all teenagers, I don't know where you get the idea that it isn't.

EVERY name but one she's mentioned at the new place has been a traditionally male name.

And then she says, 'it's great not to have to work with teenage boys anymore.'

So we've established they are all teenagers, and they all, except one (who she has specified is a girl) have traditionally male names, but they are NOT a bunch of teenage boys.

Side note, her manager, Milo, said the preferred employees tend to be 'neurodivergent nerds' (which my daughter is fine with), so it wouldn't be all that surprising if a high percentage of them are 'gender diverse', by which I assume that there are girls that are 'boys' and boys that are 'girls' and boys and girls who pretend to be neither.

With this information I do kind of assume they are mostly girls who are 'boys' or pretend to be neither.

EDITED to add quote marks around the last instance of 'boys'.

Why is every statement you make about based on deeper and more intricate textual analysis of things your daughter has said about people washing their hands, weird logical elimination, dripfed details, and so on?

Why don't you just ask your daughter "you mentioned someone called Jordan, is that a he?" or whatever.

Like does your daughter really come home and it's

"Hi mum"
"Hi dd, how was your day?"
"Not bad. We ran out of pineapple when the delivery rush started. Everyone at work today was a teenager, except one person. But no one was a teenage boy. And everyone was a boy except one person. And there were at least three people working."

To think it’s a lot of mental effort to keep up with gender these days?

Not at all. Only if you let it.

but I've always thought of Jordan as a boy's name

I know of and went to school with more female Jordans than male.

Why is this such a big deal? If your daughter is happy and comfortable at work then who cares what her colleagues names are and if they are male female trans or non binary.

Not really no. It's a lot of chatter about this person and that person and who she likes working with and who she thought didn't like her and this annoying customer and so on. Most of it goes in one ear and out the other, which is why I don't remember all the names.

The hygiene thing is just how it emerged in the conversation. She didn't like the last place because it was all, except her and the old dude, teenage boys and she didn't believe they washed their hands. I commented that females often are, often, more hygienic, and she agreed. That's it.

And so, I'm curious about the mental load in recognizing a thing to be true, this or that person is female, while engaging in the wordplay required to state the opposite by agreeing to refer to them as he/him whether or not they are present.

It's not 'such a big deal'; I'm just curious.

Do you just accept everything unquestioningly?

I mean, fine, vote YABU, but it seems to me that if you're engaging with the question, you have some issues around gender too.

You didn't seem to understand the sequence of events and were adding your own details, so I thought I'd lay it out clearly and add some extra context.

Do you think I should ask my daughter the sex and/or gender of every person she mentions or just the ones with boy's names?

On what sample size is she making that conclusion?

Wild guess: all the females she has observed and all the males she has observed.

The normal way people make observations.

I mean, you’re the one asking To think it’s a lot of mental effort to keep up with gender these days? So it seems like you think it’s a big deal? ….

You're right, we should all just be nice and not question anybody or anything, wouldn't want to make a 'big deal' out of anything, ever.

Be nice.

Yes, so what size would that be? "All" is in no way quantifiable to anyone who wasn't there.

Sorry, I should have said, we live in a secluded cult and she'd only ever met 3 females and 2 males before she started working at the pizza place.

WTF?

So she's basing it on five people.

Why do you need to do mental gymnastics?
Leave the young people to it. As has always happened since the dawn of time, young people have their own new ideas about how to live that may seem odd to you.. but clearly your daughter understands it so just stay out of it.
Leave the younger generation to create the world how they want it.
You just risk being a replica of your nan saying 'this is just noise' and 'no one has common sense anymore'... whilst everyone under 25 rolls their eyes.

Absolute nonsense that it's the OP who is making it difficult.

It's always been normal when having conversations with people to hear peoples genders specified or else to automatically know the gender by hearing the name the vast majority of the time. If it's a unisex name then people specify.

Our brains are designed to categorise and make assumptions so if I hear someone talk about a 'John' I'm going to apply the gender of man to the name, if I hear 'Mary' I'm going to apply the gender of female.

My kids are teens and have friends who are 'gender diverse'. It occupies none of my brain space at all really, I follow their lead and call their friends by whatever name they've picked and move on with my day. They are just kids and I expect they will grow out of it. When I think back to some of the stupid things me and my friends did as teens kids changing their names really isn't a big deal.

Tbh I used to think it was more of a big deal until my kids were teens and I saw how willy nilly they are with it all, today she is Ciara tomorrow she is Tobias the next day she is Alex. It seems a bit like trying different styles, skater girl, goth girl, emo girl all of which I may or may not have tried to be as a teen 😳 They are all lovely so it's not hard to be nice to them.

So you'd be fine with your daughter having a sleepover with a person who is quite clearly male but telling you they are a girl? You wouldn't feel the need to discuss it with her, because they're just girls having a girls sleepover?

Interesting.

And what do you do if your son gets his friend Dave (he/him) pregnant?

Not all young people go along with this nonsense.
My kids think the outrage over 'assuming someones gender' is ridiculous.
Thank God, because I wouldn't be pandering to them!

Thank you!

I’m not sure it takes any mental gymnastics. Their genders are mostly irrelevant. She has learnt their names (as she would regardless of gender) and finds them to be enjoyable work mates. She likes that they are more hygienic. For what it’s worth my MIL has appalling food hygiene and she’s definitely a woman! Personally I don’t care about the genitals, name, or clothing/style choices of the person making my pizza in a restaurant.

The genitals are only relevant in that one sex doesn't seem to think that touching their genitals is unhygienic and the other knows it is.