To think we’ve got it wrong about gender identity in children

[Itsmyshadow]

I have a 9 year old daughter who doesn’t fit the typical gender stereotype for a girl. She loves football, gaming and Pokémon. From a very young age she’s liked “boys” things, has always gravitated towards friendships with boys, and between the ages of 4 and 7 was quite adamant that she was a boy not a girl.

As her mum I’ve therefore taken a keener interest in gender discussions and what children are told about gender than I otherwise would have. Being completely transparent for this thread, I would very much prefer she remains a girl as her life will be so much more straightforward if that is the case.

As parents we have therefore done everything we can to help her get comfortable in who she is as a girl. We focus on the success of women in sport as much as men, watch lots of women’s football and will be watching the women compete in the olympics and paraolympics and celebrating how well they all do (we will watch the men too). DD now plays for a girl’s football team and boy’s football team (having only previously played for the boys team), and through sport has has met and made friends with girls who are much more like her.

At present she is happily identifying as a girl. I know this is a very fragile status however.

This is why I am so annoyed that in schools, primary schools, children are being taught that people can change their gender. Last year at DD’s school they had a “Pride Day” and invited an external pressure group in to do workshops with the kids, in which they were told sex is “assigned at birth according to what a doctor observes” and were shown pictures of the man presenting in dresses and told people can change their gender. We opted DD out of this workshop, but another child told her afterwards that she was a boy and should change her gender.

Why are we telling school kids this who are too young to understand? I feel this does so much damage to kids like my DD.

Shouldn’t we stop promoting a trans ideology and instead be telling children that they can be whoever they want to be regardless of their biological sex?

I feel so much good could be done by overtly celebrating women’s achievements (including those who have excelled in sport or in the army) both overtly on International Women’s Day and more subtly e.g. setting a passage to read and answer questions on about Rosa Parks or the England Women’s Football team. Same for men, schools could really celebrate the successes of men who do not meet a traditional male stereotype.

If schools really focused on driving home the message that men and women can be whoever they want to be and that their sex does not constrain them, I really feel most of the gender uncertainty in young people would go away, and we could save young people a whole load of mental and potentially physical trauma.

Thank you for sharing that @Batgin and I'm so sorry.
I believe that in addition to all mental health co morbidities, what little data that was kept about these children showed that those with a history of abuse, parents as sex offenders and shamefully, children in the care of the state are statistically over represented amongst the cohort of children thinking their bodies are wrong.
I know that certain trans activist groups and individuals very early on, chose to target the care system (foster carers, children's homes and the children in them) - shame on them.
I find it hard to restrain my contempt for those adults who targeted some of the most vulnerable children in society, alienated from their families and with few adults to stand up for them.

Perhaps I should have qualified that by saying “some posters”, or “a minority of posters”, but I’ve seen it happen a couple of times now. Just one comment per thread, but enough that I’ve noticed it.

I know some posters on AIBU think everyone’s arsehole DH is autistic until proven otherwise, so perhaps it’s just that I’m seeing.

Maybe talk to someone who is trans

Why would you assume that someone with a different worldview to yours has not talked to someone who is trans? I have done so, and what I heard was as confused as what I am hearing from you. I have educated myself - I may have read more books by trans people than you have, who knows? And those books, and the trans people I have listened to, have described a worldview that is as predicated on gender stereotypes as the very conservative worldview that was prevalent in my childhood. Just the stereotypes are swapped round in trans circles.

My son, who sees himself as trans, is trying harder and harder to match feminine stereotypes, and is becoming more and more hardline in rejecting anyone he fears may have a different worldview from his. He hasn't met anyone in his wider family for well over a year; that includes those more and those less sympathetic to the idea that he is "really" a woman. Please don't tell me this is healthy behaviour. His neurodivergence has been accepted by all his family members, but now based on this one issue he is cutting himself off from people who have loved him throughout his life. Tell me how he is not in the grip of a ... oh dear, that word is censored on here.

Previously he has been happy to discuss any religious or political idea with me. Now I am cut off because I don't believe in his worldview. This is a result of dangerous manipulation, and it is devastating to parents and siblings, or to wives and children, but none of us count for anything if we do not toe the ideological "progressive" line that is fed to us, that transgender people are the most marginalised and deserving of all.

Apologies for the rant. I am in permanent mourning until this ... loses its grip on society. You do not have to agree with me, but neither do I have to agree with you, and nor should I be pressured into agreeing with my son, any more than he has to agree with me. We used to be able to disagree and still have a good relationship. Why is it different this time? Why are questions not permitted?

@RapidOnsetGenderCritic That sounds so very hard to be dealing with.

Maybe talk to someone who is trans

I always roll my eyes at this.

My niece was 'trans' for a while. But after a few years 'living as a man' she decided that she wanted to go back to living as a woman. Unfortunately, the hormones she was have had long term health implications which she's dealing with now. She's also struggling because the trans community who cheerled her transition have now abandoned her.

So I have talked at length to someone who is trans, but I expect this is not what the poster had in mind.

Thsbkfully my niece did not have surgery. But trust me, excess testosterone fucks females up big time.

I have wondered whether it may be even later for some neurodivergent people.

Haven’t read the entire thread but hard agree with the OP.

Batgin

You're allowed to rant x

I found my own child was much more willing to see family who called them by their preferred name and accepted who they wanted to be. In my child's case, this is their actual legal name and yet some family aren't using it.

I feel for your child. They want to be accepted by you as a daughter, and by your family as a niece or granddaughter.

You are allowed to disagree with them but it will be something, I suspect, that ends up with them cutting ties with you if continue how things are. There are levels of acceptance. You can say you accept that it's how they FEEL and that even if you don't understand or agree with it, you'll respect them by using preferred pronouns or a preferred name.

If your child wanted to join the circus and you thought they should be a lawyer, what would you do? Would you say they'd been manipulated by society and their odd circus friends? Would you force them to go to law school? Would you want them to be happy with their career choices even if you thought it was a terrible idea? It's about balance. You'd probably choose to tell them that you didn't agree or understand - even that they were making a terrible mistake - but hopefully you'd also say that you loved them and that them joining the circus wouldn't change that, even if you thought they were mad! And you'd love them. And if they became an amazing circus act... Or decided to train later on to become a lawyer... You'd still love them either way. When you're at risk of losing someone you love... You choose love.

Apologies - I was solely replying to a reply to a post.

You’re so do right. No one’s allowed to a a tomboy any more.

Totally agree OP. What's happening in schools is criminal. Please write to the Education ministers with your experience, it's important and you tell it well.

Joining the circus or becoming a lawyer has no bearing on the rights of anyone else. Men thinking they can be women and going into those spaces for women in an infringement on those rights. Yeah some women won’t mind, but a lot would and they don’t get to give that away on behalf of those women who need single sex spaces for safety, privacy and dignity. It’s in no way comparable to joining a circus.

You wouldn’t affirm your child was fat if they had anorexia. Sometimes love isn’t affirming lies.

You cannot compare it to a job. You can quit jobs and retrain any time you want.

You cannot recreate a penis and undo everything years of hormones have done to your body.

How has transition helped them in anyway if they can't cope with being around people who won't pretend you are their grand daughter as opposed to their grand son. What happened to having beliefs strong enough to with stand questions. I would argue that kind of fragility is a massive problem and that colluding in the massive lie has done no favours. Where's the resilience? Where's the ability to navigate situations outside your comfort zone. You can't spend life in a bubble.

I haven’t noticed the social contagion of running off to join the circus sweeping through young people, nor resources in schools suggesting that it’s normal, nor school staff supporting it and not telling parents.
What a lame analogy.

Since 2009 the number of gender clinics in USA has grown from 0 to over 100. For every trans person signed up a drug company can expect to earn millions over their lifetime. In 2018 alone Lupron puberty blocker earned $726m - and it will be a lot more now. The hospitals removing breasts and testicles and inverting penises, with the many revisions they have to perform, earn huge amounts. Governments and councils (our money) donate a lot to charities and other LGBT groups where employees are well paid - and often most of the work is done by volunteers! As always, when something doesn't smell right, follow the money!

Yes you’re right, and I agree with others that this isn’t a new idea. I grew up in the 80s and wore a range of different colours, played with Lego, climbed trees etc. Nobody was surprised by it and no one even called me a tomboy- I was a girl who liked a range of things 🤷🏼‍♀️ In those days they didn’t have that patronising girls Lego with dog grooming salons etc. just normal Lego that boys and girls could play with and make anything they wanted.

My DCs were born in 2005 and 2008 and I tried to raise them in the same way I was raised. They both played with dolls, tried on make-up, wore Disney Princess dresses. They both climbed trees, played sports and made mud pies. I had a harder job than my mum did in avoiding gender stereotyping as it was becoming much more of a thing then in clothing and toys.

It kicks in really young though. When he was about to start in Reception, my son chose a cardigan instead of a jumper for his school uniform. Less than a week in and he told me he couldn’t wear it anymore because ‘boys don’t wear cardigans’ (clearly he was not prepared to be the only boy at school wearing one). Really made me sad. I was also sad when he wouldn’t go to the school choir, despite saying he wanted to because it was ‘for girls’.

I agree with you.
Back in the 1980's when I was a child my best friend ( female) desided she was a boy. She even used a male name in school. By used I mean she would write it in her work etc teachers just used her proper name.
She had short hair and wore boyish clothes.
Her parents literally just let her get on with it and ignored it. Her mother was very much "that's nice dear, now go and lay the table".
Occasionally she got forced into a dress for a formal event. But she was otherwise just accepted as a classic tomboy without stigma, judgement or interference.

Today that girl would probably be labelled given damaging hormones and god knows what.

She is now mid 40"s married (to a man) and a mother.
She is a classic tom boy but definitely a woman! She can laugh about it and happy admits she is no girly girl.
It's not new- famous 5"s George is a good example. Why can't we just accept kids as kids like we used to.

Her parents did the right thing in just not making a big deal if it. The teachers at school were correct in using her proper name.

but hopefully you'd also say that you loved them and that them joining the circus wouldn't change that, even if you thought they were mad!

What a nonsense analogy. Joining the circus is not irreversible. Joining the circus is not a medical procedure that we don't know the long term consequences of. Joining the circus does not require everyone else to lie to 'affirm' choices.

Loving your child involves far more than just nodding along to anything they want, regardless of the consequences.

Joining the circus! 🤡

I feel for your child. They want to be accepted by you as a daughter, and by your family as a niece or granddaughter.

How is this a helpful comment?

Fine. You believe that everyone has a gender identity.

But what's not fine is using emotive language to imply that a parent who doesn't believe in it is somehow letting their child down.

Being a non-believing parent of a child who is making decisions about their body, at a young age, which may lead to a permanent impact on their endochrine system (and possibly to surgery, which is also permanent) is an unenviable position.

Nobody is letting their child down if they are learning about gender identity and doing everything they can to support their (believing and distressed) child. Quite the opposite.

Thank you for trying to be understanding. But you are not understanding the situation. I have already told him that I will always love him, no matter how he presents. I have apologised for a couple of things that I might have handled better. But he is ghosting me. It is pretty clear that I am already rejected unless I accept him on his terms. That tells me that my feelings don’t matter to him. I won’t give up on him - he is my son, and I will never deny that. So you can put “respecting” his “preferred” pronouns the other side of Neptune. I don’t do compelled speech, especially when that is lying to my son.

His behaviour since announcing he is trans is becoming unrecognisable. Love doesn’t accept bad behaviour, it calls bad behaviour out. His choice if he continues to reject his family - including, as I think I mentioned, those who are prepared to speak as he demands. But he has been got at, like so many other trans people who think you’re suddenly hateful because you disagree over this one issue.

I expect you’re thinking that his behaviour is reasonable, because I am denying his “identity”. Two thoughts on that. First, for each of us, our identity is formed in community, and an identity which requires the whole community to see you as you see yourself is unhealthy and unrealistic. Second, his identity impacts on other people’s identities, including his mother, who is the mother of a son, and his father, who is the father of a son. Nearly the whole trans “community” is highly intolerant.

💐💐❤️💪
Your son is lucky to have you as a parent.

But what's not fine is using emotive language to imply that a parent who doesn't believe in it is somehow letting their child down.

It’s always an emotional argument because there’s nothing logical or remotely rational about believing in gender as a material reality.

I’ve just never understood how loving and intelligent people believe in encouraging children, teenagers or young vulnerable adults that it’s good to hate yourself to the point of taking harmful and permanent medication or undergo extreme surgery with the high likelihood of life long complications. Just why?

Find out what they're being taught in school about gender and have a look at this website Homepage - Safe Schools Alliance UK. Talk to your child about what is being taught and tell them that sex can't be changed but that gender is not biological, it's whatever anyone wants it to be. If your child says that they are 'trans' try to separate them from the people who are influencing them. That might be friends or these days very likely people and groups online. Remove their phone and unrestricted access to the internet. Give them plenty of family activities to keep them involved and feel valued. Try not to affirm their 'new identity' but perhaps avoid arguing about it by not using pronouns or their name if you can. Try to discuss the matter with them - you're interested in it, so ask lots of questions, but not in a judgemental way. I've not experienced this myself but have read a lot and have heard mothers talking about how they dealt with it. A useful group Rapid-Onset Gender Dysphoria (ROGD) (parentsofrogdkids.com) They can probably suggest other resources - most I can see are gender affirming.