Thread 2 - Is anyone else on here pro-trans

[tinydaisies]

I was really enjoying the 1st thread, hopefully it's ok to have a follow on so we can continue debating

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5115405-to-ask-if-anyone-else-on-mn-is-not-anti-trans

Hopefully this isn't a TAAT.

I don't think we should believe what people say they are

Imagine - job interview , yes I am a qualified surgeon , superb football player ...

Yes I am old enough to claim my pension

I mean it's just stupid - words are nothing , actions are what matter

People are who they say they are

It's not a life motto I'd recommend if someone says they are a foreign prince needing to urgently move a large amount of money into a U.K. bank account.

People lie, frequently.

So why would you advocate making it easier for men to do these things in spaces like prisons, shelters, hospital wards and so on?

Caitlin Jenner has access to millions of dollars and the best surgeons in the world. Cailin Jenner used to be Bruce Jenner. It is still obvious that she is biolocally male. There is a vanishingly small possibility of an average transwoman passing as a woman. Even if they are ambiguous on first glance they'll give it away on the second.

I’m afraid that you’ve just failed Safeguarding 101 Question 1(a)

It seems odd to me that people who say mtf shouldn't use women's spaces because biological sex trumps everything, also argue that ftm must not use women's spaces because they present as men.

It's either one or the other.

Either everyone uses the toilets assigned by birth biological sex, or we need to reconsider and be more nuanced.

No, not necessarily. Rachel Dolezal is a white woman who says she identifies as black. Do you believe she is black? I don’t, and neither do most black people.

But Savile himself said he was just a fun-loving, charity-money-raising popular TV entertainer!

So it must be true!

Are you saying that if a male successfully deceives everyone into believing that he is female, this means he actually is female?

also argue that ftm must not use women's spaces because they present as men.

I don't think very many people are saying this however

I think the question should have been - how many trans women on here

It seems odd to me that people who say mtf shouldn't use women's spaces because biological sex trumps everything, also argue that ftm must not use women's spaces because they present as men.

It's either one or the other.

It is for me and I imagine most pf the women who are the subject of this thread. I'm sure some people may have said this but it isn't a common position.

You are happy to accept you will have no rights and no way of legislating for any rights you might need in the future and to give all women's rights away?!

You are happy for men to be called 'She', 'Woman', 'Mother', whilst you get called names like 'cis', 'menstruator', chest-feeder', 'birthing bodies', 'gestational-carrier'?!

My son works with a young woman who identifies as a bat. Should we believe her too.

As someone working in safeguarding I would say Safeguarding 101 is you cannot eliminate risk. You can only assess and mitigate risk.

Some people will assess and mitigate by saying people born male shouldn't be allowed in female only spaces, others will disagree.

But do stop using the word 'Safeguarding' as some sort of top trumps. If there is one thing at the core of Safeguarding it is understanding nuance and being situation specific

I suppose the point is you wouldn't know. If a MTF transitioned to a point at which you couldnt tell that they were ever a man then you would just naturally accept them in everyday society

No TIMs pass. You can always tell. Usually it's the Adam's Apple, deep set eyes, heavy brow bone, wide shoulders, lack of hips, massive hands and feet and taller than average height.

But for those vanishingly rare TIMs who do pass physically, the male entitlement always gives them away in the end. If you were born and socialised as a male, you will never ever pass as female. End of.

I'm actually saying that I don't think men can just call themselves women without surgery or intervention. From what I've been reading (and I've possibly been mislead) a man can obtain a document at a small cost to say he is a woman. This then opens the door for him to access women's spaces and facilities. For example, he can be sent women's prisons, be put on women's hospital wards, use women's changing rooms and join women only swimming/exercise groups. I really do not see how this can be right on any level. I am not being goady, but please explain.

This is a really good point as FTM people generally find it easier to achieve a male "look", with testosterone giving deep voice and facial hair despite still having female genitalia.

That was from the previous thread. If ftm appear too masculine then women will feel threatened in women only spaces

I do agree with this, but I also believe that the examples on the thread are very much situation-specific.

0ne problem is that the live and let live policy re toilets, safe spaces etc relies on honesty, which people lying to themselves do not have.

Be kind was the worst ever hashtag to invade the Internet.

I would have no problem with Be Kind if it applied to everyone equally. Unfortunately it only seems to be expected one way.

The problem with Be Kind is that women are socialised to take this on board and men simply do not give a monkeys.

Self ID is not protected in law. A trans identified male without a GRC could not take a discrimination case against an establishment that did not let them to use the women's changing room, as legally they are male. These cases rely on who your comparator is and legally this person's comparator has to be with another male.
The trans identified male could take a case against an establishment that did not let them use the male changing room, as then their comparator would be with another male. So that would be discrimination.

At the moment it appears that a GRC would let males legally use female spaces ( although there is a court case upcoming to challenge this). This is why Labour's plan to enable more men to more easily obtain GRCs is such a threat to women. And why Labour's refusal to amend the Equality Act to clarify that sex in the Equality Act means biological sex is such a threat to women.

The problem with #bekind is that it's often used by crybullies.

It's great you've admitted you're confused.

You find it weird (that's more of a value judgement than confusion but never mind) that I care about whether or not another human has a dick? For me personally it's because I've been raped twice and seriously sexually assaulted once, all by humans with dicks. Groped countless times also by dick weilders in my university city and mugged once but that pales into insignificance.

Because I'm a mammal and because I have PTSD from the above, I'm acutely aware of the sex of my fellow humans. I structure my life to avoid as far as possible being alone with unknown males. I am hyper vigilant to warning signs that a male might be abusive BUT, exasperatingly I have a trauma response of freeze and appease. Sure this response might have saved me from being seriously injured by my rapists as a teenager but it also means I can't be sure I can rely on myself to flee an uncomfortable situation. Especially if there's social pressure to stay.

I am not afraid of lesbians because no woman has ever sexually assaulted or groped me. Not surprising when statistically well over 90% of violent and sex crimes are committed by men. Lesbians have hit on me before, I've turned them down because I'm straight, and there's been no issue. My sexual attacks were far more about power than they were about attraction. That's really important for me to understand. Otherwise how as a straight woman am I supposed to enjoy a fulfilling sex life with men ever again?

Only one of my attacks was by a known person. The other two were strangers and in public places. I'm not sure why you think I should not fear attack in public toilets?

I don't hate trans people any more than I hate Catholic people. I share the beliefs of neither but tolerance is a core value. I don't fear transwomen any more or less than I fear men in general.

I hope, genuinely, this goes some way towards clearing your confusion.