Thread 2 - Is anyone else on here pro-trans

[tinydaisies]

I was really enjoying the 1st thread, hopefully it's ok to have a follow on so we can continue debating

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5115405-to-ask-if-anyone-else-on-mn-is-not-anti-trans

Hopefully this isn't a TAAT.

If India Willoughby walked into a ladies toilet when you were in there, would you consider that inappropriate?

It's not possible to transition from male to female. And as this thread shows, it's not possible to coerce everybody into colluding with the idea that it's possible.

So trans people need to find a way to cope with reality instead. And that is their problem, not women's problem to solve.

I've been sexually harassed by a male dressed up as a woman in the ladies loos 4 times as a child.
I've never been sexually harassed by a Lesbian.
Women are worried as they can be raped or impregnated.

Women are taught they must modify their behaviour around people of a different sex from toddlerhood. For their safety. And also because 93 percent of all violent crime is committed by males I hope this answers your first question.

As for your extremely homophobic comment about lesbians, women aren’t scared of lesbians in toilets because lesbians rarely commit sexual assault. The biggest predictor of whether someone is likely to sexually assault you isn’t whether they are attracted to you, it’s their biological sex. I’ve been in relationships with men and relationships with women. I have only been sexually assaulted by men. Also, lesbians are also entitled to a safe space to change - they aren’t a special category of women’ 🙄

The reason people are cautious about getting assaulted in toilets is because that is where we are exposed and vulnerable. You are a bit hard of thinking aren’t you?

Isn’t this a distraction from how men are the problem? Well, no because it is part of it. This IS the way men are the problem. This is about men deciding whether or not women are entitled to safe spaces. This is about men trampling over women’s boundaries and y trying to silence women.

I am pro trans, pro human rights, and not at all concerned about trans people taking my stuff or my safe spaces or showing me their genitalia. All of that stuff is routinely done by out and proud maculine men just fine.

She was always female. Her sex is incongruent with her body type, and the proof of that is that she has a female gender identity. This is why it's so important for her to be able to replace her original birth registration, and to have access to healthcare as early as possible, so she does not go through the wrong puberty.

(Just thought I'd switch sides for a bit: I feel really dirty now.)

Yes, did you see the way IW behaved on celeb Big Brother? And continues to behave?

It's about provocation with that one.

It would have to be either socially necessary, or demanded by the toilets' owners, for them to carry GRCs and produce them on demand.

Currently illegal as you know and also totally unnecessary. There’s no reason why you couldn’t use birth certificates as a form of ID in those instances.

Some people assert that gender has nothing to do with your physical body and is instead an internal feeling, a sense of identity. They believe that if a person has a feminine gender identity, they should be able to use women's spaces regardless of whether they have made any modifications to their physical bodies or not.

These people, I believe, label people who believe that changing physical characteristics should be necessary, 'truscum'. It's their logic I was asking about.

That said, if your own position is that people who have had what used to be called a sex change should be allowed in the facilities of their desired sex (so, no penises in women's spaces) it's a coherently logical one, even if it's not my standpoint, so I appreciate that answer.

Good for you. You don't decide that for others though.

There is sone stupidity on this

Black is white

Hot is cold

Man is woman

I bet! It didn't quite work though as sex is always congruent with body type, gender bollocks being separate.

Even if the bollocks have indeed been separated.

of course not! But neither do you. Its a fucking democracy.

You appear to be arguing that we need to ignore the extensive data we have which informs safeguarding ( men commit 97% of all sexual offences and male predators will go to considerable lengths to access victims, and many men are also opportunistic offenders who will take advantage of situations that are available to them (such as allowing them into single sex spaces or creating new mixed sex - now called gender neutral- spaces- and this is why we have single sex spaces to keep women safe) in favour of a very new and unproven gender theory.

The safeguarding we have has worked very well. Now that we have started to undermine it, assaults on women have increased. A freedom of information request has shown that nearly all sexual assaults in changing spaces take place in the euphemistically named gender neutral changing facilities (a more accurate name is mixed sex). Allowing males into single sex spaces has resulted in harm and assaults to women and girls.

Basing safeguarding on extensive data is not 'outdated', its simply evidence based practice.

We may need additional facilties for trans people, such as specific victim support services for trans people, but we absolutely need to retain single sex spaces for women and girls because the risk to them from males has not reduced.

They used the term “male” - When there's a female-only space and a male decides to disregard this boundary and impose himself anyway, how is this not a violation?

As for “unnecessary inflammatory language” - certain spaces are female-only for a reason.
If a male person decides to disregard that boundary and enter such a space anyway, they show that they don’t really care whether women feel comfortable and safe in their presence or not.
Call it violation or something else, but it is the type of behavior that will push some women out of the spaces that are supposed to be specifically for them.

People are who they say they are and that's all you need to know. Please stop with the bigotry in our safe space thread.

"I also think we should believe people when they tell us who they are."

No, not necessarily. Rachel Dolezal is a white woman who says she identifies as black. Do you believe she is black? I don’t, and neither do most black people.

I suppose the point is you wouldn't know. If a MTF transitioned to a point at which you couldnt tell that they were ever a man then you would just naturally accept them in everyday society.

The counter point to this is that alot of transpeople are not transistioning at all.
The number banded about was that 95% don't have surgery.
And as far as I can see nobody knows how many are on hormone replacement therapy
There also seems to be no stats about trans people in the men's toilets, just that they feel unsafe.
And other stats that have been put forward have been debunked.

I suppose the point is you wouldn't know. If a MTF transitioned to a point at which you couldnt tell that they were ever a man then you would just naturally accept them in everyday society.

Well theoretically yes. It is vanishingly rare though.

Ladies and gentlemen (and everyone else) I refer you to the 5,900-year-old Count Binface.

You quoted the wrong poster. I wasn’t saying that, I was saying the opposite

@macaroniandcheeze I think that the fear mongering about trans woman is scarily similar to that of old homophobic propaganda

Its really not. I would object to a gay man wanting to enter a woman's service, or women' sport, because he was male, not because he was gay. So this is not homophobia as homophobia is objecting to someone because they are gay.

I object to trans identified males entering women's services or women's sport because they are male, not because they are trans. So this is not transphobia as transphobia is objecting to someone because they are trans.

Sorry!

"our safe space thread"

How ironic.