Thread 2 - Is anyone else on here pro-trans

[tinydaisies]

I was really enjoying the 1st thread, hopefully it's ok to have a follow on so we can continue debating

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5115405-to-ask-if-anyone-else-on-mn-is-not-anti-trans

Hopefully this isn't a TAAT.

It's still confusing to me that it is now your mind/feelz are right and your body is wrong, when it used to be the other way round, not saying that was ideal. Your body is your body, your chromosomes are fixed, you are what you are, but wear what you like. And men, behave better to people who do this.

Why?

Why is that more important than my own experience of being female? Why do they get to decide what a woman is, not me?

It really isn't about genitals and I think anyone who pretends that they think it is, is a complete pervert. Or trying to deflect.

it's weird to be so obsessed with strangers' genitals

Almost got my bingo card filled up and we're not even halfway to the thread end.

At what point does a man turn into a woman?

When he changes his pronouns? When he changes his name? When he puts on lingerie? A dress? Lipstick? When he gets breast implants? When he chops his penis off?

What one single event makes it possible to definitively say that this man is no longer a man, he is now a woman?

If the answer to the above is: When he decides he is, then that is simply pure nonsense. No safeguarding or policy decisions affecting the safety of women and girls should be made on such groundless fantasies.

Im really surprised at the hate on here. Sure I can understand the concerns people have but shouting they're born men so they need to be treated as men is at best insensitive

Clear, unambiguous language is an important condition of effective safeguarding

Being a woman means being dealt an absolute shit hand of cards. If anyone wants to join the ranks voluntarily - frankly, I think that's nuts, but I salute the bravery. Trans women in "women-only" spaces somehow don't concern me. Rough calculation based on Census data indicates there are around 130k trans women in UK, 0.25% population. However, I am slightly worried about trans men (who used to be women) in "male-only" spaces. I think they are at a greater risk of harassment and violence.

You tried! It’s impossible. it’s been sort of nice to see people try, but feels like in the trying it’s given a lot of airtime to a lot of really nasty stuff as well. So on balance… feels like ‘shut up and leave mumsnet to hate trans people’ might yet again be the winner on the day

If I saw a trans woman walking down the street I wouldn't go up to them and go "you are a man" that would be rude, and weird and yes transphobic. Just like I wouldn't interrupt a catholic mass shouting "it's just bread and wine you fools!"

But if there was a male in the women's toilets, or a rape crisis centre, or competing as a woman in the Olympics THEN it becomes appropriate to say "there is a man in the women's toilets, in the women's only rape counselling session, in the women's 100m final." then the differences between men and women are relevant. You can tiptoe around it with euphemisms but if anything that becomes more insulting. If someone was making me affirm that bread and wine could literally become Christ's flesh and blood I would find it necessary to say "it's just bread and wine"

If people really cared about the demonisation of trans people, they wouldn't be supporting an ideology that actively incentivises male sex offenders etc to identify as trans in order to get access to women's spaces. Or saying on behalf of their "trans friends" that women should accept males into changing rooms. Cos if I really did hate trans people that's what I would do!

We're not obsessed with genitals, we're concerned with the biological strength that comes with having those genitals. My husband is 62. He is fit and healthy but he is not a body builder. He can pick me up and lift me over his head. During lockdown we turned a bedroom into a gym. He already had weights.Normal Argos set of weights. I thought that I would be able to use his lightest weight. I couldn't unless I used both hands and I certainly couldn't lift it over my head.I bought my own set. My heaviest weight is half the weight of his lightest weight. He was a senior manager. That's nowhere near being an athlete. He is taller, bigger, stronger than me just because he exists. If he wanted to hurt me he could. If he wanted to rape me he could ( my first husband did). Its not the genitals we care about its what they are attached to and what can be done with them.

Why would people need to have a space just for people with the same gendered feelings as them?

What is a ‘gendered feeling’? Some people change their physical sex characteristics. They should be allowed (and actually are) to use the spaces for their transitioned sex generally.

There are some exceptions in law. Exceptions inherently imply they are outside of the usual the or general.

I agree. A totally bizarre switcheroo.

It is disrespectful to rape women
To ogle women
To put women down and ignore them because they are women
To ignore women's health issues because women's bodies are too difficult
To fail to provide adequate safety gear because women's bodies are to complex

It is disrespectful to insist that people accept a feeing of gender over an objective measure of sex

Transgender ideology is disrespectful to those who have used a different method to handle their gender dysmorphia

I'm not sure what your exact point is. Women are only talking about male genitalia because that's the bit that can rape them, give them an STI and impregnate them - or all three at once. I take your point about lesbians in toilets and I'm sure some lesbians could beat me up if they wanted to (somewhat unlikely though) but they can't inflict any of the aforementioned without a penis. Simple.

As for men being the problem, yes totally.

An point of order - men are endlessly obsessed by sex organs - they can't even be bothered to look at your face

One rule for men and another for women ?

Being trans is as much of a choice as being gay is. There should be more tolerance on here. True trans MTF arent trying to step on anyones rights, they simply want to transition into females.

Do those who wholeheartedly disagree accept a trans MTF who has had gender confirmation surgery as a woman?

We're talking about people born male but who identify as female not through choice!

Who says? Some are very happy to say that they don't have any dysphoria. Some very naive ideas among the pro TRA posters.

Deciding to use spaces designated solely for the opposite sex is a choice though.

Can only speak for myself but I think there is no such thing as trans - dress how you like who cares but nobody is trans it's impossible wake up

"TIMs don't want third spaces. They want to violate women's spaces. That's the whole point."
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Go away. This thread is not for you. Plus it's not true

Unfortunately, it is true.or at least it does for some men who identify as women.

Trans women in "women-only" spaces somehow don't concern me. Rough calculation based on Census data indicates there are around 130k trans women in UK, 0.25% population.

Two problems with this reasoning.

1. one man in a woman's prison/refuge can cause a lot of problems for the females in these spaces

2. In allowing 'transwomen' into women's spaces, you are allowing any man who fancies it access. There is no way of distinguishing between 'true trans' and the rest of men.

Being trans isn't as much a choice as being gay

Gay people can be identified - things like pupil dilation when shown certain images- and the rates of gay people is constant across time and space , in areas where it's accepted and areas where it isn't

Transgender identity isn't consistent at all - it's higher in the more sexist societies and societies with strong anti gay laws

It can't be identified through any external observation

And the recent ad hoc survey on here showed that a significant proportion of older women had experienced transgender feelings but didn't need to act on them long term and interpreted them differently to the "I need to have hormones" approach of today ( much healthier in the past )

I'm bisexual, in case that's in any way relevant. And I've never been harrassed, ogled, groped, followed, assaulted or sexually insulted by a lesbian or a bisexual woman. Ever.

Like pretty much every other woman on the planet, I can't even count the number of times these things have happened to me at the hands of men. And much, much worse.

I don't know what they mean by identify as female. Pro Trans posters, please can you explain? I only know what it's like to be me, with the added experience of childhood socialisation, periods etc, all of which they don't have.

If it's just not liking football, cricket and trousers, I want my 19 % pay rise now as I am clearly male.

However, I am slightly worried about trans men (who used to be women) in "male-only" spaces. I think they are at a greater risk of harassment and violence.

I wouldn’t worry too much. Many of them look like this. This one reckons he’s a lot safer. Certainly than women.

https://www.newsweek.com/trans-man-broken-men-1817169