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28
NoMoreFalafelForYou · 09/07/2024 23:57

Do the trans women are women brigade also support trans-racial people? It gets asked regularly but no-one ever answers. Seriously, if I can wake up tomorrow and demand people refer to me as the opposite sex, can I also demand to be acknowledged and accommodated as an ethnic minority? For no other reason than that I have always felt “a bit black”?

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 23:58

More absurdity. Have you been watching too much Piers Morgan?!

Dont you see the hundreds of thousands marching for Pride? It's everywhere whether you like it or not and it will not go away. Men can become women and women can become men. It will become as accepted as people going to Turkey for a gastric sleeve, or fake teeth or fake hair. We're living in really liberal times. Society will need to react. I suspect more unisex services will come to the fore and the concepts of males and females will synergise.

eatfigs · 09/07/2024 23:59

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 23:52

But they will. It's coming. More inclusivity and pride for all. It's a huge movement . Maybe only Andrew Tate and MN will try and lobby against it. Who knows?

Andrew Tate is on your side lol, here he is making the same arguments as you have in this thread ...

https://x.com/ivy_is_sleeping/status/1632767733682302976

x.com

https://x.com/ivy_is_sleeping/status/1632767733682302976

allaboardtheplaybus · 10/07/2024 00:02

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 23:58

More absurdity. Have you been watching too much Piers Morgan?!

Dont you see the hundreds of thousands marching for Pride? It's everywhere whether you like it or not and it will not go away. Men can become women and women can become men. It will become as accepted as people going to Turkey for a gastric sleeve, or fake teeth or fake hair. We're living in really liberal times. Society will need to react. I suspect more unisex services will come to the fore and the concepts of males and females will synergise.

The longer you go on the more convinced I am that you're having us on 😂

Helleofabore · 10/07/2024 00:09

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 23:58

More absurdity. Have you been watching too much Piers Morgan?!

Dont you see the hundreds of thousands marching for Pride? It's everywhere whether you like it or not and it will not go away. Men can become women and women can become men. It will become as accepted as people going to Turkey for a gastric sleeve, or fake teeth or fake hair. We're living in really liberal times. Society will need to react. I suspect more unisex services will come to the fore and the concepts of males and females will synergise.

Then you really have not kept as up to date as you are now trying to convince us all.

The current feedback from parents is that children are no accepting of this ideological thinking that you seem to support. Yes, some children are very confused and are seeking help. But those children who were supporting it are now much less than previously according to the parents on MN.

Plus each year less and less of the UK population support male access to female single sex spaces, and sports.

”the concepts of males and females will synergise.”

errr… in what way do you see this happening?

eatfigs · 10/07/2024 00:10

Men with fake hair teeth and gastric trussies can stay out of female spaces too, thanks.

Helleofabore · 10/07/2024 00:13

By the way, what is it that you find ‘absurd’ @DianeAbbotsJamjars ?

Adult people identifying as children? It is already happening .

Humans identifying as reptiles? It is already happening .

TheHateIsNotGood · 10/07/2024 00:14

And what IS a transman? You can't have one without the other, so easiest to just be who you are, wear what you like and are comfortable in - tbh who would actually choose to be a woman given all the angst and threads on MN illustrating the disadvantages. Although from my 60+ years of perspective it's currently looking no great shakes to be a man, manliesque, etc either.

So, best if everyone calms down, has a nap and starts again.

Helleofabore · 10/07/2024 00:15

allaboardtheplaybus · 10/07/2024 00:02

The longer you go on the more convinced I am that you're having us on 😂

The lack of knowledge outside the binary transgender identities. The pseudo-scientific future wishes. You could be right.

Crazycrazylady · 10/07/2024 00:17

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 23:58

More absurdity. Have you been watching too much Piers Morgan?!

Dont you see the hundreds of thousands marching for Pride? It's everywhere whether you like it or not and it will not go away. Men can become women and women can become men. It will become as accepted as people going to Turkey for a gastric sleeve, or fake teeth or fake hair. We're living in really liberal times. Society will need to react. I suspect more unisex services will come to the fore and the concepts of males and females will synergise.

I believe you're wrong. I think the tide is turning against this whole idea . Originally people were live and let live about until this until the flaws in the argument ie were pointed out to them.
For lots of people I know the journey has gone something like this.
Do you believe people can change sex?. Yes why not , live and let live
So you're ok with trans women in your changing room then? Well no not exactly...
Do You think trans women should be allowed compete in female categories ? Well no, of course that unfair.
Do you think teenagers should have access to gender surgery? Well no, far too young etc

I think people wished to be 'kind' and liberal but the reality of what it would mean in practice has proven far too much for most people . The brain sees what it knows to be true and most people are supportive of people wearing what they want or using what name they want but won't pretend to believe something that's simply not true.
It often reminds me of the story of the emperors new clothes where everyone at the start pretends to go along with it until someone points out how nuts it all is and the whole charade comes tumbling down.

CorvusPurpureus · 10/07/2024 00:24

Actually, I worked for a bit with a chap who talked a lot like @DianeAbbotsJamjars .

Perfectly nice guy, capable enough in his fairly undemanding role, but whether he'd previously been a ToP lAwYeR or a ScIEnTiSt or a SpAd to John Major depended on what time of day you chatted to him.

He was convinced that he'd somehow legally represented someone who was a perfect hermaphrodite, had impregnated themself, & then got into a complicated custody battle over the resulting baby with their twin sibling because everybody concerned had identical dna.

I suspect he would also have wanted Keir Starmer to sort it all out.

(Ex colleague no longer with us...he popped off shortly after retiring. Cheerfully bonkers till the end, as far as I know).

Catsmere · 10/07/2024 03:23

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 18:52

@TheKeatingFive I disagree, I believe you can be born in the wrong body. As I say, its not dissimilar to me to homosexuality. We as humans arent designed to be homosexual neither are we designed to change into a different gender. But that's not to say that some people feel that way and wish to live that way. To just say men are men and women are women and thats the way it is is shortsighted.

Going back to this comment, does its homophobia strike anyone else? "Not designed to be homosexual" is essentially a religious stance (no surprise given this poster's apparent belief in mismatched gendered souls) implying there's a designer, and one who gets it wrong on occasion. It also ignores that homosexual behaviour has been observed in many species. It's essentially saying homosexuality is wrong, and therein is the homophobia of this whole movement. How many homosexual children and teens have been subjected to the treatments forcing them to deny their sex and their sexual orientation and pretend to be heterosexuals of the opposite sex?

Kindling1970 · 10/07/2024 05:27

Drfosters · 09/07/2024 19:40

Can you give examples of the oppression? Genuinely curious.

Having a prime minister make fun of your group, being killed/bullied/attacked just for being trans, fear mongering by suggesting all trans people are dangerous, being shut down. All things that happen to oppressed groups

Clarabell77 · 10/07/2024 06:46

XChrome · 09/07/2024 22:01

Why would that happen? It only becomes an issue if those spaces are open to biological males. One would naturally assume that since men are not allowed, it's simply an androgynous looking woman, so nobody would want to chuck them out.

At one time I worked in security. I was on guard at a music festival. The ladies toilet had a long line, so one drunken woman went into the men's room. This was before being trans was something that was widely talked about.
She was not androgynous at all. The men in there heard her sit down to pee. One man was outraged because his young son had seen her bare ass as she was too drunk to close the door properly. Other men were upset because she had seen their dicks at the urinals. I then had to throw her out of the show because after I warned her, she tried to do it again, then became belligerent when challenged. Her drunken excuse was she was actually a man.🙄
If I did the same thing now, I could have been accused of "bigotry" for my actions, even though I did it to protect the privacy of those men.

The point of telling this story is that who is going to assume, without clear evidence, that anyone is the opposite sex if the spaces are kept single sex? They would need a good reason to think so, which in that case the men had. I highly doubt they'd have complained to me about an androgynous looking person using the men's room.

You must’ve missed the threads on here where women who described themselves as androgynous were told/challenged that they were in women’s toilets.

I don’t think anyone would be accused of bigotry for removing the woman or complaining about her, her behaviour was crass and disgusting. The GRA is intended to make life easier for a few trans people, it’s not saying it’s okay for people to flash their bits about in public toilets, we will still have rules about that.

XChrome · 10/07/2024 06:54

Clarabell77 · 10/07/2024 06:46

You must’ve missed the threads on here where women who described themselves as androgynous were told/challenged that they were in women’s toilets.

I don’t think anyone would be accused of bigotry for removing the woman or complaining about her, her behaviour was crass and disgusting. The GRA is intended to make life easier for a few trans people, it’s not saying it’s okay for people to flash their bits about in public toilets, we will still have rules about that.

I'm sure that happens more now, because toilets are fair game. That's an unintended consequence.

The men in my example were not upset about crassness. They were upset that their privacy was invaded. A polite woman seeing their dicks wouldn't make them feel any better.

protectoroftherealm · 10/07/2024 06:56

"Having a prime minister make fun of your group, being killed/bullied/attacked just for being trans, fear mongering by suggesting all trans people are dangerous, being shut down. All things that happen to oppressed groups"

@Kindling1970

Do you want to acknowledge the stats on how many women have been killed/bullied/attacked by men since the dawn of time and then consider the minuscule amount of 'trans-women' who have been killed/bullied/attacked. Look at the figures, they speak for themselves. Have a look at who is actually violently oppressed.

borntobequiet · 10/07/2024 07:16

eatfigs · 09/07/2024 23:15

Reminds me I saw this today via another forum, absolutely wtf on several levels:

https://old.reddit.com/r/askgaybros/comments/1dytnl4/why_are_you_so_afraid_of_male_pussy/

That’s, erm, a robust discussion. Gracious.

inamarina · 10/07/2024 07:25

Thefsm · 09/07/2024 17:38

Trans women are women. Trans men are men. Trans gender fluid are whatever they identify with at that time.

no trans woman is trying to steal feminism and women’s rights. I hate that attitude. I hope all those with such attitudes did out with my generation and let the young people continue a world where we aren’t defined and limited by body parts.

Repeating certain claims like some sort of religious mantra isn’t going to make them true or even logical. It also won’t convince those who question those claims.
It's like reciting the Lord's prayer at someone and then acting all shocked and surprised that they're still an atheist.
I might be wrong, but I think saying something like “transwomen are male people who for whatever reason struggle with the stereotypes associated with their biological sex and feel more comfortable presenting in a way that they associate with the opposite sex” would convince more people than the dogmatic TWAW.

no trans woman is trying to steal feminism and women’s rights.

People on this thread and on many others on here have explained over and over again, quite patiently and eloquently, citing relevant data and their own experiences how and why exactly certain “trans rights” clash with women’s rights.

inamarina · 10/07/2024 07:28

TheDogsAreInThePool · 09/07/2024 17:34

I disagree, there are many lesbians like her from Cole and Abbie who look very male. FTM isnt a million miles away from that.

The couple on tiktok? They are both very clearly female. I've actually seen them out and about in real life and Cole is tiny, very petite but with boobs and hips and a feminine face. Stop basing it on having short hair and hoodies ffs.

Yes, I’ve just googled them - I saw one picture where Cole might have passed for a teenage boy and lots of others where she looked like a petite woman with short hair.

Helleofabore · 10/07/2024 07:33

Clarabell77 · 10/07/2024 06:46

You must’ve missed the threads on here where women who described themselves as androgynous were told/challenged that they were in women’s toilets.

I don’t think anyone would be accused of bigotry for removing the woman or complaining about her, her behaviour was crass and disgusting. The GRA is intended to make life easier for a few trans people, it’s not saying it’s okay for people to flash their bits about in public toilets, we will still have rules about that.

What is even the point of your whatabout the androgenous women? As a child and teen, I was often asked if I was in the wrong toilet. I simply replied, ‘I am a girl’. I was often mistaken as a boy.

We have had numerous women tell us that they now thank other women for asking if they are in the right toilet. They thank those women for checking so that other women can be safe in those toilets without a male presence. They don’t get upset about it because they understand. They also want the toilet to remain single sex so they encourage that very basic level of security.

The leveraging of androgynous women into any debate about single sex toilets is another sign of bad faith debate. It is whataboutery.

Yes, there is a likelihood that more women will be asked if they are in the wrong toilet. If they have not taken testosterone their voices will be a very clear indication of their sex so it is useful for those asking to be assured by hearing that voice. A male voice influenced by testosterone is usually simple to detect.

Either way, women have always asked and some women and girls have been repeatedly asked through out decades.

When did it become unsafe to be asked if you are female when in the female toilet? Unpleasant? Maybe. Annoying? Maybe. Unsafe? How? And yet, these women’s experiences are being used to attempt to convince other women to stop campaigning for single sex spaces.

So I guess I have to ask, do you really think that the majority of androgynous women aren’t included in the majority of the female population of the UK that want single sex spaces to be just that, single sex? ie no male people.

If androgynous women are not included in that majority, why do you think they are not included?

inamarina · 10/07/2024 07:36

Peskysquirrel · 09/07/2024 17:44

Well, I'm afraid young people are going to have to be defined and limited by body parts if they want to continue the world.

Basic biology and all that.

The young people I know (teenagers) actually seem much more sceptical than the eager “TWAW” generation (or two) before them.
The tide seems to be turning, I don’t think young people are as willing to blindly accept “be kind, no debate” as PP seems to be hoping.

borntobequiet · 10/07/2024 07:39

a world where we aren’t defined and limited by body parts

A world of no material reality? That’s fanciful.

ArabellaScott · 10/07/2024 07:43

eatfigs · 09/07/2024 23:15

Reminds me I saw this today via another forum, absolutely wtf on several levels:

https://old.reddit.com/r/askgaybros/comments/1dytnl4/why_are_you_so_afraid_of_male_pussy/

I think it's hard for women to grasp just how extreme men's sexuality can get, tbh.

Not All Men, before anyone chirps up.

BigWordAtlas · 10/07/2024 07:51

HowardTJMoon · 09/07/2024 14:56

You can curl your lip about the bigotry of those talking about bearded men in miniskirts

Thanks for your permission. I'll continue doing just that. Just like thinking about the "Backs against the wall, lads, the poof's coming through" about a slightly effeminate lad in my class makes me curl my lip now and wish I'd said something then. Or the bigotry about "limp-wristed bum-boys" being in public toilets being an imminent danger to boys sharing the same space. Or the bigotry about supposed lesbian PE teachers ("but just look at her, she's got short hair and doesn't wear heels!") being an imminent danger to girls.

but if that is what they are protesting about wouldn’t you agree with them?

I'd try to work out how significant and realistic a concern it is before I'd agree or disagree. There are aspects of the trans debate about which I have so far only seen rhetoric, vitriol and slurs rather than sober analysis of facts. As stated previously, the slurs and stereotypes I've seen bandied about have largely pushed me away from digging in to the debate so far.

Are you ok with your teen daughters having to shower with boys, whether they want to or not?

I'll ask my daughter and get back to you.

It’s awful, isn’t it, that the “slurs and stereotypes” from GC women have “pushed you away from digging into the debate” - those nasty TERFs really do an awful lot of damage, don’t they, with their “facts”, their “reality”, their battle against retrograde stereotypes that gender ideology insists upon, and the violent threats of sexual assault against TRAs. Oh, that last one, wait…

Cool that you’d have to check with your (very real) teenage daughter about whether it’s ok to force her to shower with teen boys, though.

Lord save us from liberal men.

midgetastic · 10/07/2024 07:54

We are our physical bodies - our brain and souls live in them and are created by them - so we are always bound by them

What feminists want is that

  1. people don't take advantage of the differences
  2. people don't make assumptions about personality and capabilities based on the body
  3. people respect the natural differences

We cannot escape them - any changes we make physically do harm us

But they don't fully define you - they are only a part of your whole

This is so the opposite of the gender cult where you must change yourself to express your correct "gender "physically although that tends to mean that you current are doing things that the gender police disapprove of for your sex

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