Thread 2 - Is anyone else on here pro-trans

[tinydaisies]

I was really enjoying the 1st thread, hopefully it's ok to have a follow on so we can continue debating

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5115405-to-ask-if-anyone-else-on-mn-is-not-anti-trans

Hopefully this isn't a TAAT.

But the whole point is that we can't tell which of the pretend women is a real pretend woman or a pretend pretend one.

But we can tell they're all men, so off they all pop.

What does it matter what sexual orientation they have. Obviously they are most likely to be either homosexual males or bisexual males.

Plus, you keep saying it is a ‘functional vagina’. Well it is just as ‘functional’ as an anal canal, using your logic, isn’t it? The only thing different is a slight difference in position. Oh wait… the male cavity is slightly different anyway to a vagina so that difference is negated.

So, no. The male cavity surgically created is just a fuck hole. It is as much a vagina as it is an anal canal.

And it doesn’t matter what the male people who have the operation to create a cavity call it. It really doesn’t matter at all.

That wasnt my photo! Im not here to piss anyone off. I simply feel that some people should be supported to transition and be accepted for who they are. That awful scotsman was never a woman in a month of Sundays.

Yep. It is a constant reminder that that are not women or girls. Material reality must be very hard for them to accept and I hope they get enough mental health support.

@Helleofabore if you were ever having a civilised conversation with a post op trans woman would you describe her vagina as a "fuck hole" to her face?

I don’t know how to respond to this as a mother to a child who in the last 18m has said they now identify as male (but were born and raised female).

do I support trans people’s right to exist and live in a way that makes them happy? Yes.

do I want womens only spaces for things like changing rooms, women’s refuges? Also yes.

do I want my child in the men’s toilets? No. Despite that they present and pass for male.

I feel so much of the argument is about male to female transitions and biological men in women’s spaces. But I want my kid in the women’s because I don’t trust cis men, but there may come a point soon where someone objects to that. So where does my kiddo go?

So the nasty men who say they are women aren’t women, but the nice men who say they are women ARE? So you can be a woman if you’re a good human being? If you’re a rapist or domestic abuser you can’t be REALLY trans. Bur I have to share single sex spaces with you - as do my daughters - and trust that you are a nice and real and true transwomen or I’m a transphobic bigot?

And we are supposed to run a functional society, legislate, safeguard children based on this watertight approach?

I despair.

Diane, most women don't have conversations with other women about their vaginas.
Outside of a medical.context. Sorry to harsh your girlie sleepover fantasy.

For me, pro trans means I'd actively encourage someone to want to be trans, and that I'd frame changing gender as a way for a young person to genuinely express themselves, and escape the problems they face as their birth sex.
I have two transmen cousins. I'm totally supportive of them, and other trans people to dress and be named as they wish. But, they will never actually be another gender/sex. They will be something different. Not worse or better, but they are trans, and thats different from being the opposite sex.
I don't agree with children being given puberty blockers or being encouraged to have irreparable surgery to affirm their trans identity.
I don't believe trans women should be in female sport, changing rooms, refuges, prisons and hospital wards.
I don't think I'm anti trans, but who knows?

It's only through open debate that change will occur. Don't belittle it. I can imagine a Labour think tank operating focus groups to discuss the very subject. Perhaps some ardent MNers could be invited.

And a triple somersault double pike back over the shark.

It's a muscle that connects the uterus to the outside world and is the birth canal for the delivery of a baby during labour.

This is a rational, inclusive approach. We can’t stop (nor should we try to) adults expressing themselves in which ever way they choose. People can change their names, dress how they like, have extreme plastic surgery if they must. That’s their business. I accept that.

Bit you cannot change sex, and should not be able to claim sex-based rights. And keep kids out of this.

If only the TRAs and ‘allies’ could be as thoughtful and balanced.

They still have male q angles. They still have ankles and feet that are shaped to walk with those particular q-angles. They still have male grip strength in hands that likely are still a larger proportion skeletally. They still will never have ligaments that respond to the menstrual cycle that will mean they are more prone to injury at particular times of the month.

It doesn’t matter that they are ‘at the feminine’ end of some spectrum. They are male.

Tell us more about this beachball.

You don’t get to pick which people are ‘transgender’ and which people are not.

Seriously, who are you to arbitrate who is transgender and who isn’t?

None of us are individually but collectively there needs to be an answer. As with the ND community, the trans community will continue to grow over time and questions will need to be answered and solutions found. There may be many feninists on here aghast at the thought of it but MTF trans people are going to become increasingly numerous.

Why does this matter whether I would use the term directly to their face or not?

You seem overly invested here. And overly concerned with how people talk with imaginary other people in what I can only assume is some kind of censureship. And censorship.

This post is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. You though, seem to be unable to process the misogyny you are supporting. Has it sunk in yet? Even just a little bit.

But they said they were a woman, so that means they are. If someone says they're trans and all that.

Fascinating.

So the oppressor group appropriating the lived reality of black people by donning blackface is unconscionable.

But the oppressor group appropriating the lived reality of woman makes those people (men, mostly white men) not just stunning and brave, but uniquely marginalised?

Make. It. Make. Sense.

Make. It. Make. Sense.

Anyone typing like this is best ignored.

If more males want to get penis tunnels installed then they're free to go for it. Who are we to deny men the right to indulge in their obsessive little hobbies, whether it's stamp collecting or todger chopping.

Doesn't mean they can start wandering into female spaces though.

Parameters. We all need parameters. Labour will address this. It's up for debate, theres no getting away from it after it featured so heavily in pre election debates.

But they will. It's coming. More inclusivity and pride for all. It's a huge movement . Maybe only Andrew Tate and MN will try and lobby against it. Who knows?

And yet, if male people were not treated like female people because they say they are girls or women, and there were no negative impacts on any female people or children, then why would we be worried?

The solutions are easy. People remain their sex. Philosophical beliefs do not need to be affirmed, they should be treated like religious belief. No person ‘born in the wrong body’. If someone says they are transgender, then that is just an identity that they have. They don’t get additional accommodations more than the rest of society. They are treated equally, or equitably.

The issues arise because of others pushing that post modernist theory should be treated as material reality. What other identities are treated as material reality?

By the way, is a male who is an adult but says that they are a 5 year old girl (and there are plenty of examples of these male people) eligible to enrol in school?