Thread 2 - Is anyone else on here pro-trans

[tinydaisies]

I was really enjoying the 1st thread, hopefully it's ok to have a follow on so we can continue debating

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5115405-to-ask-if-anyone-else-on-mn-is-not-anti-trans

Hopefully this isn't a TAAT.

I couldn't. I may have sympathy for some people who choose this but I can never have empathy. As I have an actual vagina.

I’m sure you’re going somewhere with this and I’m certainly no authority on the history of trans people but I think there have always been trans people who expressed themselves to varying degrees and been accepted to varying degrees. That’s white western culture. Other cultures, I think some have and have always had some ‘gender stuff’ just as part of life.

some people always felt a certain way but never expressed it Im sure, and I’m sure that happens still with lots of things now. I have no stats, which I know everyone LOVES, on whether / how many more people are seeking surgery or looking to define themselves as a different gender compared to history or whether the current period is more accepting.

Whether, specifically, a person who always wished they could be in the world as a woman but lived and died as a man should be called a woman… well, as they’re dead, I guess if this fact emerged after they died it would be a nice thing to do for their memory to call them ‘she’ in death. But y’know, they’re dead so

A penis is a uniquely male body part.

Even if it's hairless, shrivelled, less functional and the skin is softer, it is not in any way feminine because zero females have a penis. A small number of females have flayed their arms or legs and had the skin and muscle rolled into a cylindrical mass of flesh then sewn onto their groin but it's not actually a penis.

Wow a man speaks so we should all listen.

You aren't affected by these men being in your spaces putting you at risk of rape and assault. It is NOT fear mongering to express that women are at risk from men and transwomen are men. Women have already been attacked. Is that good enough for you? How many more would you like raped by men who say they are women before it meets your threshold of not being scaremongering?

The second highest number of transitions in the world takes place in Iran. Why? Because it is a deeply homophobic society and homophobic people don't want gay kids. So much easier to say they were 'assigned' the wrong sex at birth. Homophobia is still very much alive and well I'm afraid.

And what are transwomen if they aren't men in dresses? They clearly aren't women. It is merely a dilution of the much more lengthy phrasing that they are men who are portraying society's stereotypical image of feminity. There is absolutely no comparison between pointing out the material reality that tranwomen are men in dresses (some of whom like Alex Drummond retain their facial hair) and homophobic slurs. None.

So many women are gender critical and yet utterly gracious towards transwomen. Happy for them to continue as they are in third spaces. Compare that to Rachel Dolezal who was subjected to a barrage of hate filled abuse for identifying as a different race. They made an entire documentary about her 'sins' yet you ding see women clamouring for transwomen to incur the same wrath from society.

Yet here you are portraying women as nasty and the equivalent of homophobes for standing up for women's rights, for their safety, for their very identity.

We see exactly what you're trying to do and we see exactly who you are.

I haven’t read the first thread.
I do feel bad about the trans people based on how much anti-trans propaganda is pushed in the news just to divide people and create a problem that would be talked about everywhere.

Mostly agree, although I'm not so sure about 'total clothing rights' having heard Grayson Perry talk and seen him with his codpiece at a Clic Sergeant fundraiser.

Females will be even more likely to attacked when you let any males into a female toilet. Trans women are certainly not more vulnerable than a female. They are almost always taller and stronger than an adult female. Stop trying to gaslight women and accusing us GC's as being pathetic. You're being naive and a bit more critical thinking is needed. What could possibly go wrong when anyone can say that are anyone and we all have to go along with it. Our eyes don't deceive us.

I’m sorry but the comparison to historical homophobia and the struggle for gay and lesbian rights is absolute fucking bollocks. It’s such a reach I don’t even know where to start.

Nothing to do with femininity.

Have you not kept up to date? This is why I have pointed out that you seem rather transphobic. You are so focused on the male people
who declare they are women. And porn to be fair.

But there are now surgeons advertising that male people can get a cavity created in their groin while still keeping their fully functioning dicks. It is just another fuck hole being created and no specific gender identity needed, I believe. Just any male who wants a cavity for another male to put their dick into.

David Lammy has his own theories.

😂

@Helleofabore my goodness no id never heard of that. Who is electing for such surgery? Hetero or homo sexuals?

Yes but they are still clearly men. The height, hands and feet and gait normally give it away but facially it is obvious when up close. The photos you see on the internet are heavily airbrushed. But those very glam trans women aside most look like men in a dress, makeup and wig. Which honestly in day to day life I have absolutely no issue with. They are welcome to live their best lives dressing and presenting themselves as they like. It is a free country and I would have zero issue with any trans person at all in my work and home life. I just would not feel comfortable getting changed with them in a small enclosed changing room. I don’t understand why this is controversial to some. And the only answer seems to be ‘get over it’. How do you get over it? How do I ever feel comfortable getting naked in front of a biological male who is not my husband? I would rather go into the loos and get changed there or just leave. How is that fair?

On the "neovaginas" these males get constructed:

@Drfosters some are built that way but others are more at the feminine end of the spectrum, they have naturally feminine frames. Again they aren't all build like a brick outhouse with size 13 shoes.

They could be tiny slight males or huge hulking males, I don't want to undress with any males in the room.

Perhaps ask a post-op trans if they consider their vagina functional, I'd imagine they's say so.

functional for what?

Why?

Why do we have to consider a male person’s point of view who is having surgeries to match their own misogynistic view of what a woman is? Has anything we have said sunk in at all?

No one in the UK has to affirm any other person’s philosophical belief. No person has to accept a male person’s misogynistic action to define themselves into ‘woman’ this forceably changing the meaning of the word for those who need it- female people.

Your efforts here have amounted to continuing to push that misogyny as being acceptable whether that was your intention or not. Your post come across as uninformed. Or rather only informed by consuming and then repeating an ideological viewpoint even to the point of wishing science would one day prove your view point right. When it will not until every cells can be re-engineered and time turned backwards so that the person with the now opposite sex body only ever experiences life as that sex. Ie from birth.

It doesn’t matter what any male person says about their surgically created cavity. It isn’t a vagina.

Dp is the same height as me, with a marginally smaller frame. Its also clearly a masculine frame. I have no doubt he would floor me in a physical fight.

So no men of any size in a situation where I am vulnerable please.

Reminds me I saw this today via another forum, absolutely wtf on several levels:

https://old.reddit.com/r/askgaybros/comments/1dytnl4/why_are_you_so_afraid_of_male_pussy/

100% this. It’s what winds me up about the ‘cis’ woman bollocks. Hang on a minute, mate, YOU (male) are telling ME (female) what I am? What a woman is?!

And this is progress? Fuck right off.

I think this is perfectly said and it sums up my thoughts.

I've never believed Isla Bryson to be a trans woman. I believe he is a predatory man who would've liked to continue to be so in prison.

I believe the media picks up on rare cases like this in order to cause division.

I would never say that Isla Bryson is a trans woman, because firstly I don't believe it, and secondly, I think it is detrimental to trans women.

I suppose my point is that men saying that they are women to cause suffering to other women are not trans women.

I suppose my point is that men saying that they are women to cause suffering to other women are not trans women.

No True Scotsman

Ok, so you think trans people are the far end of an imaginary 'spectrum' for gay people, depending on if those gay people are 'effeminate' or 'butch;' & you find the word 'moobs' upsetting but you're cool with 'foofs'.

Perry is described by you as 'not a trans'. I've no idea what you're deciding his status on, but I don't think trans people like being called 'a trans'.

I'm interested by your posts. As far as I can see, you're doing your best to piss off everybody. Which is fine, but not an argument.

Nice photo of Dame Katy Denise earlier 😄

Do you believe that other males who claim to be women are women? If so, why?

So what IS a transwoman?