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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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28
inamarina · 09/07/2024 22:39

Baital · 09/07/2024 17:00

As someone working in safeguarding I would say Safeguarding 101 is you cannot eliminate risk. You can only assess and mitigate risk.

Some people will assess and mitigate by saying people born male shouldn't be allowed in female only spaces, others will disagree.

But do stop using the word 'Safeguarding' as some sort of top trumps. If there is one thing at the core of Safeguarding it is understanding nuance and being situation specific

Edited

Some people will assess and mitigate by saying people born male shouldn't be allowed in female only spaces, others will disagree.

What would be the argument of those who disagree?

murasaki · 09/07/2024 22:40

What, the surgical wound made from other body parts that needs dilating every day?

Functional indeed.

Igneococcus · 09/07/2024 22:40

Perhaps ask a post-op trans if they consider their vagina functional, I'd imagine they's say so.

Can they squeeze a baby through?

murasaki · 09/07/2024 22:42

I suspect Diane is currently waiting for a flight from Malaga Airport.

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 22:42

Igneococcus · 09/07/2024 22:40

Perhaps ask a post-op trans if they consider their vagina functional, I'd imagine they's say so.

Can they squeeze a baby through?

Absurd. As they would never need to. This is becoming farcical which is what you all want. Hey ho, it is only going to increase.

Igneococcus · 09/07/2024 22:43

Well, then it is not a functional vagina, Diane, it's really quite simple.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/07/2024 22:44

Absurd. As they would never need to.

Why is that, Diane?

protectoroftherealm · 09/07/2024 22:45

"We can add what is a vagina to the list, along with what is a woman and what is a trans. You're talking more about symbolism. Perhaps ask a post-op trans if they consider their vagina functional, I'd imagine they's say so."

@DianeAbbotsJamjars What is its function? What purpose does it serve that requires it to 'function'? It can't pass blood, it can't birth a baby, so that leaves what? What is its function?

Bewilderedandpowerless · 09/07/2024 22:46

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 22:24

Well Bridget Phillipson will sort this all out in the coming years and you can expect to see more rights for what you insensitively call "men" accessing womens spaces. Keir is as confused as all of us but he will ensure minorities are represented.

Keir is as confused as all of us but he will ensure minorities are represented.

I’m not confused. Starmer isn’t either - he’s just a coward.

borntobequiet · 09/07/2024 22:46

This is becoming farcical

It became farcical quite some time ago.

Farcical (gender self ID) and horrifying (hormones and surgery for gender questioning children without proper psychological assessment) in equal measure.

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 22:48

protectoroftherealm · 09/07/2024 22:45

"We can add what is a vagina to the list, along with what is a woman and what is a trans. You're talking more about symbolism. Perhaps ask a post-op trans if they consider their vagina functional, I'd imagine they's say so."

@DianeAbbotsJamjars What is its function? What purpose does it serve that requires it to 'function'? It can't pass blood, it can't birth a baby, so that leaves what? What is its function?

Are you trying to goad me into saying it will accept a mans phallus as if thats a bad thing. Sex is likely to be an integral part of many post operative MTF womens lives and promote their femininity.

Helleofabore · 09/07/2024 22:48

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 22:38

We can add what is a vagina to the list, along with what is a woman and what is a trans. You're talking more about symbolism. Perhaps ask a post-op trans if they consider their vagina functional, I'd imagine they's say so.

I am not talking about symbolism. I am talking about an important part of the female anatomy that is far more than the fuckhole you have designated it.

And why should any female care what a male who has had an extreme body modification feels about that extreme body modification? It is not a vagina. And of course some would say it was ‘functional’. They too consider a vagina just a fuckhole as you seem to do.

By the way, did you know that far too many of those surgical cavities are not even functional. Many male people have unsuccessful results. Or if the cavity even remains open and free of hair growth, if it was made from colon, they report the smell is very distressing for them and any male person they wish to engage in sex with.

You seem to be so deeply entrenched in ideological thinking that your posts are simply not based in reality, they are rather misinformed and idealistic. and they seem to be rather transphobic to me with your check list of who is ‘trans’ and who isn’t and only focusing on the binary transgender people.

setmestraightplease · 09/07/2024 22:48

Forgive me for returning to comments on the first thread, but this comment says it all (my bold print)

@Sausagedognamedmash

I really struggle with the nuances of this. I have trans friends, both mtf and ftm and support them wholeheartedly every single day.

However I have also been on the receiving end of an SA by a man who was only a "transwoman" when it suited him to access women only spaces in order to be a predator. I understand clearly this was one bad person, not indicative of a whole subset of people, however when you've been in a position where such abuse has taken place because no one would stand up and say otherwise despite it being clearly a lie. Because that would be 'denying their truth' and 'anti-trans' it worries me, that small minority that abuse the system and the good nature of others in order to be a predator, and as with the Man/Bear debate, you can never tell on face value alone who is a predator and who is just a normal person trying to live their life.

There is absolutely no nuance.

The phrases I understand clearly this was one bad person, not indicative of a whole subset of people and you can never tell on face value alone who is a predator sums up the whole issue EXACTLY.

ALL men do not pose a threat to women's safety.

But SOME men do.

And some men deliberately do under the current protection of 'feeling like a woman'

Decent men (who are the majority of men IMO) instinctively know and respect that women need their private spaces to feel safe and to maintain their dignity - because of the threat that SOME men can pose. Therefore, the majority of men are happy to stay out of women's spaces, They instinctively understand the reasons why men shouldn't be there under any circumstances.

It's an historical understanding - men understand what men can easily do (and sometimes do) to women and that is why safeguards were introduced.

It takes only one bad person to put women at risk

If NO men are allowed, it makes it easier for women to challenge if one bad person does enter that space. It makes it easier to enforce a women-only space.
It safeguards a vulnerable sex. Because you can never tell on face value alone who is a predator

So,if a man wants to enter that space and go against historic reasons of safeguarding, it automatically raises safeguarding questions.
It automatically raises the question 'why' does he want to enter that space............
and it automatically pre-supposes that a man does it for reasons that are not conducive to women's safety, dignity and privacy.
Women's instincts tell them this.

If a man ' doesn't feel safe as a trans woman using male facilities', then surely the questions to ask are WHY he doesn't feel safe? and WHY are men making him feel unsafe?

And that surely is an issue for men to resolve, not women.
Is it perhaps that men need to reframe their thinking?

I absolutely believe that people should live their lives as themselves.

But I also absolutely believe that women's rights are there for a bloody good reason.

borntobequiet · 09/07/2024 22:49

I have to say I rather like the notion of a symbolic vagina. It has a nice ring to it.

And it might promote my femininity! What’s not to like.

ChuckinDaaahn · 09/07/2024 22:50

But do stop using the word 'Safeguarding' as some sort of top trumps. If there is one thing at the core of Safeguarding it is understanding nuance and being situation specific

It is frightening that you supposedly ‘work in safeguarding’ and think like this. It doesn’t surprise me, though. I have worked with some totally captured social workers who, frankly, shouldn’t be anywhere near vulnerable children with their judgement so clouded by ideology.

The welfare of the child (or vulnerable adult) is paramount. THAT is ‘Safeguarding 101’.

Adult ideologies, adult ‘feelings’, adult fantasies and fetishes, the pushing of harmful gender stereotypes, the complete disregard for the obvious interplay between poor mental health and/or neurodivergence and gender dysphoria - and, crucially, giving some people a special pass to bypass the rules and boundaries that protect vulnerable groups - is utterly wrong and renders any supposed safeguarding arrangements ineffective and meaningless.

It is so, so worrying that people in positions of trust and power over children and vulnerable adults can’t even grasp the fundamentals.

Igneococcus · 09/07/2024 22:50

Sex is likely to be an integral part of many post operative MTF womens lives and promote their femininity.

Are you saying femininity depends on getting shagged?

murasaki · 09/07/2024 22:52

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 22:48

Are you trying to goad me into saying it will accept a mans phallus as if thats a bad thing. Sex is likely to be an integral part of many post operative MTF womens lives and promote their femininity.

This is where you really jumped the shark.

ArabellaScott · 09/07/2024 22:52

Helleofabore · 09/07/2024 22:36

Nope. You have called it a functional vagina. To say this shows readers that you believe a female is someone with a fuckable hole between their legs.

A vagina is so much more than an inverted penis or a piece of colon or intestine that has been added to provide a male with a fuckable hole. But you can double down all you like it will make no difference to those who now see just how you view a female body part.

Can't tell a woman from a hole in the ground.

Helleofabore · 09/07/2024 22:53

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 22:42

Absurd. As they would never need to. This is becoming farcical which is what you all want. Hey ho, it is only going to increase.

And yet, that is ultimately what the vagina is for. The farcical part is you arguing that it is just a hole to fuck and that a male can have a vagina.

No. A male person can have a surgically made cavity as part of an extreme body modification. It has no function except to be there for another male person to put their dick into it.

Helleofabore · 09/07/2024 22:56

protectoroftherealm · 09/07/2024 22:45

"We can add what is a vagina to the list, along with what is a woman and what is a trans. You're talking more about symbolism. Perhaps ask a post-op trans if they consider their vagina functional, I'd imagine they's say so."

@DianeAbbotsJamjars What is its function? What purpose does it serve that requires it to 'function'? It can't pass blood, it can't birth a baby, so that leaves what? What is its function?

To fuck, of course. It is a fuck hole.

murasaki · 09/07/2024 22:56

Helleofabore · 09/07/2024 22:53

And yet, that is ultimately what the vagina is for. The farcical part is you arguing that it is just a hole to fuck and that a male can have a vagina.

No. A male person can have a surgically made cavity as part of an extreme body modification. It has no function except to be there for another male person to put their dick into it.

So a 'bonus hole' (and god that term is grim) in a gay relationship.

Not a functional vagina by any stretch of the imagination.

DianeAbbotsJamjars · 09/07/2024 22:58

You could maybe try and view it from the POV of the person going through the surgery. Their side of the beachball and all that.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/07/2024 23:00

I could, but I'm not sure what that would bring to anything? Wanting to have a vagina isn't having one.

TheHateIsNotGood · 09/07/2024 23:00

Neither anti nor pro - I just accept that some people are born differently and believe that female warriors and feminine men have always existed and most societies have had an acceptance. It's just not on my radar as an issue.

The wierdo-bullies who try and pull a 'stunt' on vulnerable people in any way deserve societal punishment to discourage such behaviour. I'm against most cosmetic surgical procedures even moreso the invasive cut off your genitals/mammaries kind because surgery is to save lives, not pleasant and is rather drastic.

I'm more concerned that societal gender norms still focus on the Victorian interpretation of what is female and what is masculine and expects the main 2 genders to conform to this. Producing this focus on gender re-assignment rather than focussing on the out of date gender interpretation is what divides.

Women can be physically strong and men can be pretty - David Beckham wore a sarong quite easily, the Seattle RrrtGirls sung some good songs and, as that great wit, E Izzard promulgated as a policy "total clothing rights" is the way forward.

Igneococcus · 09/07/2024 23:01

Nobody is forcing them to have this surgery.

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